Standing on First still awarded two bases.

[CoachJD]

So if a throw goes out of play untouched it's two bases from the time the throw left the fielders hand but if there's contact with the glove before it goes out of play it's one base from the time of contact?

No. An overthrow can hit something (a glove, a player, a base, etc) and it's still a 2-base award. A throw glancing off a glove, like in RAD's play, is a 2-base award. The only question (and I'm not 100% clear on it still) is where was the runner when the ball was thrown, as that's how you determine where she ends up.

The 1 base award requires possession, such as a player losing control on a tag attempt.

 

[RADcatchers]

Asked earlier...will ask again

What are people considering possession of the ball?

Ball goes in the glove but becomes lost.
What determines possession?
A time frame? Seconds...tic tic tic?
Or
Once the ball is in the glove,
that means it's in the glove
=possession.
> even if it's just for a split micro moment...?...!


Definitely have seen this called differently!


(As to my original post.
There is no way the batter Runner would have reached first before the throw started the play at 3rd.)

 

[dogpatch]

NFHS 8-4-3e

 

[CoachJD]

Asked earlier...will ask again

What are people considering possession of the ball?

Always best to go to the rules book for this (using NFHS for this).

The rule regarding the overthrow just says "possession," so you need to look elsewhere.

Here's the definition of "Catch" (2-9):

SECTION 9 CATCH
ART. 1 . . . A catch is the act of a fielder who, with her hand(s) and/or glove/mitt, securely gains
possession of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.
ART. 2 . . . In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder must prove she has control of the
ball and that her release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.
ART. 3 . . . If the fielder has made the catch but drops the ball either in transferring it to the
throwing hand or in making a throw, the ball shall be ruled caught.
ART. 4 . . . For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before
stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over or through the fence
after making a catch shall be credited with the catch. A fielder who catches a ball while
contacting or stepping on a collapsible fence, which is not completely horizontal, is credited with
a catch.
ART. 5 . . . A catch shall not be credited if:
a. A fielder catches a batted, pitched or thrown ball with anything other than her hand(s) or
glove/mitt in its proper place.
b. Immediately following a catch, the fielder collides with another player, umpire or fence or
falls to the ground and fails to maintain possession of the ball.
c. The fielder uses any equipment or part of her uniform that is displaced from its proper
position.
d. An entire foot is touching dead-ball territory at the time of the catch.
e. The ball strikes anything or anyone other than a defensive player while it is in flight. In
this case the ball is ruled a ground ball.
f. The fielder traps the ball. A batted fly ball or line drive is considered trapped if it hits the
ground or a fence on a short hop before being caught. A thrown ball is considered trapped if
it is on the ground and the glove/mitt or hand is over it, and the player does not have control.
A pitched ball is considered trapped if it is a strike but touches the ground on a short hop
before being caught by the catcher.
ART. 6 . . . A ball prevented from hitting the ground by a player's equipment (providing it is in its
proper place) or body shall not be ruled caught until the ball is securely held in the player's
hand(s) or glove/mitt.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Always best to go to the rules book for this (using NFHS for this).

The rule regarding the overthrow just says "possession," so you need to look elsewhere.

Here's the definition of "Catch" (2-9):

SECTION 9 CATCH
ART. 1 . . . A catch is the act of a fielder who, with her hand(s) and/or glove/mitt, securely gains
possession of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.

Just for fun . . . another tangent:

For the MLB crowd out there, going to the rulebook for a definition can be dangerous.

They recently (Twins vs. Rays, 9/5/24) seemed to rule that an outfielder who -- uh -- picked up? -- a ground ball and crashed over the fence had "deflected" the ball out of play BECAUSE the baseball guys, in their infinite wisdom, ONLY define a CATCH as catching a batted ball in the air. You cannot "catch" a pitch, a ground ball, or a thrown ball by the definitions of MLB. Catch and carry could not be applied, so they settled on "deflected" (statistically it went down as a ground-rule double).

 

[CoachJD]

Just for fun . . . another tangent:

For the MLB crowd out there, going to the rulebook for a definition can be dangerous.

They recently (Twins vs. Rays, 9/5/24) seemed to rule that an outfielder who -- uh -- picked up? -- a ground ball and crashed over the fence had "deflected" the ball out of play BECAUSE the baseball guys, in their infinite wisdom, ONLY define a CATCH as catching a batted ball in the air. You cannot "catch" a pitch, a ground ball, or a thrown ball by the definitions of MLB. Catch and carry could not be applied, so they settled on "deflected" (statistically it went down as a ground-rule double).

Wait, you cannot catch a pitch?

But OBR mentions the "uncaught third strike." The opposite of uncaught is caught, the past tense of catch.

5.09 says "A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it."

A thrown ball can be in flight (so can a pitch), but a ground ball cannot, based on this wording. 5.09 also talks about a ball being "legally caught by the catcher."

There's also this: "If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught."

This rule is applied to thrown balls all the time, like on a double play attempt where the middle infielder catches a throw and then bobbles/drops it on the transfer. I can't find any other place where this is mentioned.

The problem with OBR in that Twins/Rays game is Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C), which says "A fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls into any out-of-play area." The wording specifically says catch and carry (a phrase not used, but we know what is meant by that) only applies to caught fly balls.

I'm curious to see if they change that rule to include any type of catch and carry situation going forward.

 

[pdqkevin]

Runner on second base. Batter hits ground ball. Runner on second takes off to 3rd. Defense tries to throw that Runner out on the tag play at 3rd. Ball gets lost and goes into the dugout.

The batter running to first runs through first base and comes right back to first base and stands on 1st base. Zero intent to turn to go to second base.
Just stands on first base bag.

Because the ball went into the dugout...the Umpire immediately steps forward and says
'dead ball that's two bases' and puts his hand up in the air signaling two fingers, brings the runner from third home.
But then...
he takes the runner who's standing on First Base and moves her all the way over to Third.

On a thrown ball that goes out of play, all runners get two bases from where they were AT THE TIME OF THE THROW. It wouldn’t matter it the ball was touched at 3rd and slowly rolled out of play allowing the batter/runner to have passed first base before the ball went out of play. Unless the batter/runner had already touched first before the throw was made, which is highly unlikely on a first play by an infielder, then the batter/runner should only be allowed second base.

 

[pdqkevin]

Runner on second base. Batter hits ground ball. Runner on second takes off to 3rd. Defense tries to throw that Runner out on the tag play at 3rd. Ball gets lost and goes into the dugout.

The batter running to first runs through first base and comes right back to first base and stands on 1st base. Zero intent to turn to go to second base.
Just stands on first base bag.

Because the ball went into the dugout...the Umpire immediately steps forward and says
'dead ball that's two bases' and puts his hand up in the air signaling two fingers, brings the runner from third home.
But then...
he takes the runner who's standing on First Base and moves her all the way over to Third.

Here is the answer from GROK on X/Twitter:
According to NFHS (National Federation of State High School Associations) softball rules, if an overthrow by an infielder goes out of play, the batter is awarded:

- **Two bases** from the base she occupied at the time of the throw.

This means if the batter was on first base, she would be awarded third base. If she was at bat (on no base), she would be awarded second base. Each runner on base at the time of the pitch is also awarded two bases from the base they occupied.

This new AI thing is great for rules questions. Put in the rules organization, in this case I asked for high school but you could so NCAA, USA, PGF or whatever and ask the question.

This is how I phrased my question:
In nfhs softball rules how many bases does the batter get on an overthrow that goes out of play

 

[The Man In Blue]