Should coaches or catchers call pitches?

[radness]

I agree but in your example of hitting there are other factors (physical and mechanical) besides the data (mental) that determine the outcome.

You would think if it was a skill that catchers would be better hitters on average.

Respectfully asking
How come you are ignoring visually being able to see consistency in location?
There have been several posts where you just don't even care to include the great comments and points people have made. So I'm asking you directly how do you ignore being able to see control of the ball and making decisions with that?

 

[_MIA_]

So I'm asking you directly how do you ignore being able to see control of the ball and making decisions with that?

He gave his definition of what defines a skill..go back and read it.

 

[radness]

If this question were asked of only pitchers
Q. Pitcher do you have your favorite pitch to throw that is your go to pitch to strike batters out?
A. A seasoned pitcher will have an answer to this.
That answer will vary pitcher to pitcher.

That one piece of knowledge for each pitcher in each game can be a game changer!
AND
That one piece of knowledge can change throughout the game!

Communication is a skill!
Another skill set that's hard to quantify/measure.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

There have been several posts where you just don't even care to include the great comments and points people have made.

Someone already answered this thread on best practices and it's here: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/should-coaches-or-catchers-call-pitches.42783/post-649605

 

[_MIA_]

I will say this...there are plenty of coaches around here that would certainly benefit from using a random number generator to make every decision...

 

[Eric F]

Absent any data that is exactly what I am saying. Of course in the real world we do have data, at a minimum we know what the pitchers primary pitches are so that is a good place to start.

It's a hypothetical for discussion, I am not selling anything.

If everyone wants to think they are good at pitch calling that's fine. It's just confirmation bias...

For the LHP on my DD's team, one of her most effective and reliable pitches has been her drop curve on the low-in corner to a RH batter. She gets a lot of KLs on that spot...when the pitch is working...when the ump calling that spot for a strike. The other pitchers on the team don't have that pitch, and one has a tendency to leave the ball over the plate when aiming for that location. Two of the Ps usually have a reliable change-up. The other P has control of her change-up some days, but not others. What pitches my DD calls with one P will vary with another simply because of what the P is able to do, how it aligns with the ump, and the batter, on that day. Good pitch calling is using the tools available in the moment, in an effective way. That's the skillset.

Random will ask for pitches that the P is not able to execute with reasonable reliability. I don't consider this a good approach.

My DD's team played a game where the P on the opposing team threw a change up for the first pitch to every batter. Every one. Unfortunately for her, she was struggling to get the ball in the strike zone, or get hitters to swing. The coach kept calling for it. The second pitch was a fastball. Every one. My DD and her teammates proceeded to crush the ball, and the coach kept calling pitches the same way. This was bad pitch calling...in a game that mattered.

 

[radness]

@GunnerShotgun thank you for making for some interesting conversation on DFP

 

[Tatonka]

Respectfully asking
How come you are ignoring visually being able to see consistency in location?
There have been several posts where you just don't even care to include the great comments and points people have made. So I'm asking you directly how do you ignore being able to see control of the ball and making decisions with that?

Gunner has been consistently entrenched in his opinion and position on this subject over the years and as far as I can tell is not about to budge.. That firm belief, while admirable in some regards doesn't show much adaptability or illustrate much of what many try to preach as a "growth mindset". Using this collected data and experience does in my opinion translate to being more skilled than someone without it.

I do recognize we are only speaking of pitch calling here and I've long asserted that it is a team event involving at the very least the P, C and the Coach. Surely we all recognize that there are other aspects to the C position that are skills which are developed and worked on over time.

 

[_MIA_]

Gunner has been consistently entrenched in his opinion and position on this subject over the years and as far as I can tell is not about to budge.. That firm belief, while admirable in some regards doesn't show much adaptability or illustrate much of what many try to preach as a "growth mindset". Using this collected data and experience does in my opinion translate to being more skilled than someone without it.

I do recognize we are only speaking of pitch calling here and I've long asserted that it is a team event involving at the very least the P, C and the Coach. Surely we all recognize that there are other aspects to the C position that are skills which are developed and worked on over time.

As far as I can tell, his only argument is that it is not a skill (based upon his definition) which really only matters if you take pride in having this skill. I don't see him saying that it shouldn't be done (pitch calling..by anybody) based upon the conditions (eg having "data") that many/most operate under.

I happen to disagree with his definition of a skill because under his definition most athletic endeavors, which we consider skills, wouldn't be. Some track and field events (controlled environment for the most part) might be the only sports that would qualify as having outcomes based purely upon (his definition) of skills (of course one could argue that athletic ability is not a skill either..)...and that is probably questionable as well.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

That firm belief, while admirable in some regards doesn't show much adaptability or illustrate much of what many try to preach as a "growth mindset".

I use on my team and it's the same approach that others have mentioned, which is a combination of coach, pitcher and catcher working together as one.

This conversation hasn't moved me to change that.