Sequence?

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
I would argue that those clips are showing separation/slack removal, and not launch. When they launch, I believe, everything fires at once. JMO of course.
I don't mean to speak for @pattar however, the rear elbow is starting down, the hips are turning forward, the barrel is starting to move....... does your definition of 'launch' happen sometime after all the parts are already moving towards the target?
 
Aug 20, 2020
79
18
I don't mean to speak for @pattar however, the rear elbow is starting down, the hips are turning forward, the barrel is starting to move....... does your definition of 'launch' happen sometime after all the parts are already moving towards the target?

Those clips probably do bleed into launch, about the time the elbow starts to drop. However, the only thing in those clips that would indicate ground-up sequence is hip/shoulder separation. I believe the hip/shoulder separation occurs prior to launch and can be maintained without launching. It’s how good hitters adjust to changeups. They simply separate hips and shoulders and wait for the appropriate time to swing.
 
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
I would argue that those clips are showing separation/slack removal, and not launch. When they launch, I believe, everything fires at once. JMO of course.
Everything is "firing" already in those clips..do they re-fire??? If your kid's actions (and body positioning) resembles the above clips he/she is 95% there imo so getting there would seem to be a good goal however you decide to teach it (or don't.. :LOL:) ... 🤷‍♂️ . Of course easier said then done :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Aug 20, 2020
79
18
I agree with the fact of ground force. As in the JStone video scissoring when he is not connected to the ground. But look at the bottom graph i copied as it shows what happens when everything 'fires' at the same time.

Maybe this is more of a question on which direction body parts are going at time of launch (fire). If hands shoulders and torso are getting 'stretched' backwards, then the hips 'fire', but are 'ahead' of the top(torso,shoulders,hands) at launch, and the 'top' has to 'catch up', then that should be a better more efficient sequence. If everything 'fires' 'forward' at the same time, you get an 'all back-all forward' type swing, which shown by KMotion is inefficient. (see the first graph below where the red hips are 'ahead' and the green blue brown 'top' is moving at relatively the same 'speed'). And @pattar can correct all my physics errors in speech. thanks. speed velocity etc.


Quote from the last link below:
'Think of the kinetic chain as simply transferring energy and speed from the ground up by accelerating and decelerating each segment of the swing, ultimately transferring energy into the barrel of the bat. K-Vest is able to track this transfer of energy by measuring the peak rotational velocities and the manner in which they accelerate and decelerate in order to propel the next segment of the chain forward.'


https://jrod20033.medium.com/kvest-fef23191645c
https://rocklandpeakperformance.com/3-questions-when-analyzing-kinematic-sequence-kvest-baseball/
https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/11/introduction-k-vest/

View attachment 20715
View attachment 20716

Fanboi, this is some interesting information. I am trying to understand the Kvest graphs you posted, and I have perused through some other online Kvest information. I'm not going to pretend to understand it all, but I do have some questions/comments.

In the "efficient" swing, it looks like Kvest shows that the pelvis fires first, and then torso, upper arm and hand fire at roughly the same time. From the graph, I can't tell how much time is supposed to elapse between the pelvis firing and then everything elsefiring. What do the 100, 200, 300 on the graph represent? Depending on the answer to this question, I would be asking about how that time frame affects the mental process of the hitter. For example, I assume we have to be talking about hundreths of a second here. So does it make sense for the hitter to consciously try to start the hips first? Do big leaguers think that way? Or do they think "fire all guns!" and the hips just happen to start 2/100 of a second faster? But again, I can't really tell what the timeframe is from the graphs.

Also, to me it looks like the big difference in the efficient vs. non-efficient swing is the quickness of the launch. The non-efficient swing appears to begin gradually, whereas the efficient swing appears to explode upward immediately.

Depending on the time frame between pelvis firing and everything else firing, I might argue that the Kvest data supports what I'm saying. Except for some slight lead by the pelvis, everything else fires at the same time. It's pretty clear that the segments should stop (or decelerate) in a specific order, but that's another issue altogether. At a minimum, the Kvest data shows that torso, upper arm and hand should all fire at the same time. Those segments do not appear to be waiting for the previous segments to fire before beginning.
 
Last edited:
Apr 20, 2018
4,581
113
SoCal
I agree with the fact of ground force. As in the JStone video scissoring when he is not connected to the ground. But look at the bottom graph i copied as it shows what happens when everything 'fires' at the same time.

Maybe this is more of a question on which direction body parts are going at time of launch (fire). If hands shoulders and torso are getting 'stretched' backwards, then the hips 'fire', but are 'ahead' of the top(torso,shoulders,hands) at launch, and the 'top' has to 'catch up', then that should be a better more efficient sequence. If everything 'fires' 'forward' at the same time, you get an 'all back-all forward' type swing, which shown by KMotion is inefficient. (see the first graph below where the red hips are 'ahead' and the green blue brown 'top' is moving at relatively the same 'speed'). And @pattar can correct all my physics errors in speech. thanks. speed velocity etc.


Quote from the last link below:
'Think of the kinetic chain as simply transferring energy and speed from the ground up by accelerating and decelerating each segment of the swing, ultimately transferring energy into the barrel of the bat. K-Vest is able to track this transfer of energy by measuring the peak rotational velocities and the manner in which they accelerate and decelerate in order to propel the next segment of the chain forward.'


https://jrod20033.medium.com/kvest-fef23191645c
https://rocklandpeakperformance.com/3-questions-when-analyzing-kinematic-sequence-kvest-baseball/
https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/11/introduction-k-vest/

View attachment 20715
View attachment 20716
Josh Rodriguez
Josh Rodriguez Hitting Stats

He had 12 ABs with the Pirates (2011) and batting .083 and is currently playing for Tecolotes de los Dos Laredos of the Mexican Baseball League. Must be one hell of a SS.
 
Oct 13, 2014
5,471
113
South Cali
Good point. The sequence is very important but other things come into play. The sequence is just a measurement of how well you transfer energy.
 
Oct 13, 2014
5,471
113
South Cali
The illusive FYB ‘metric’. Which still can’t be measured?? Oxymoron?! LOL. Which imo makes or breaks a hitter. It gives a hitter their adjustability. Gives them a bigger time window.

1611070613123.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: TDS
Aug 20, 2020
79
18
Good point. The sequence is very important but other things come into play. The sequence is just a measurement of how well you transfer energy.

I guess it raises the question, for me, of how people use the word "sequence". I've always interpreted it to mean that different segments fire in a sequence starting at the ground (feet, legs, pelvis, torso, etc.). It seems pretty clear to me that energy builds throughout the swing, reaching its maximum at or near contact. But I don't think that means that the segments fire in a sequence. It makes far more sense to me that they would start together and then stop (or slow down) in a sequence. Looking at MLB swings, it looks pretty clear to me that the hips finish their job at contact, where they typically stop and often even move in reverse.
 
Oct 13, 2014
5,471
113
South Cali
I guess it raises the question, for me, of how people use the word "sequence". I've always interpreted it to mean that different segments fire in a sequence starting at the ground (feet, legs, pelvis, torso, etc.). It seems pretty clear to me that energy builds throughout the swing, reaching its maximum at or near contact. But I don't think that means that the segments fire in a sequence. It makes far more sense to me that they would start together and then stop (or slow down) in a sequence. Looking at MLB swings, it looks pretty clear to me that the hips finish their job at contact, where they typically stop and often even move in reverse.

for me the sequence is about loading things in the right order. The firing part should be an automatic if everything is wound up the right way to begin with.
 
Oct 13, 2014
5,471
113
South Cali
I believe the ‘gurus’ out there show what they need to show to get you in the door. Some are better than others. If you understand cause and effect well in hitting you will be fine.

edit: and how to get FYB 🙂
 

Latest posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,468
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top