Runs Allowed in USSSA

[JLI2010]

I agree with wanting a 1 seed but more importantly playing the game correctly. and at this age, having fun and developing should be goal number 1. Unless the coach plans on restocking every year to replace those that are sitting in pool play to earn that seed. There will be no perfect seeding method. We've lost plenty of bracket games as a 1 seed and if you don't, you're not playing the right level. These tournaments may have multiple pools with no equality to the competition. It can work both ways. You get run differential and you'll start comparing the competition. Its a no win other than to use pool play to warm up for brackets.

My point is one minor rule change and teams can do both. Why have runs allowed be the first tie breaker? I don't get it.

 

[JLI2010]

he should not coach 10u, if you are prez, can him. simple, he should not be coaching 10u, not in any way shape or form. if I was parent of #11 player on that team, I would be putting stop payments on checks and finding new org.

Man. I'm glad I posted here and not on Facebook! Would have been way worse! We have 11 and bat 11 in all pool and bracket games. Everybody plays. I just want more pitching time for #3 and a new #4 and wish the rules supported it.

 

[bmakj]

because RD or RS encourage running up of scores. plain and simple. there is not a perfect method, especially when you do not get to play everyone else in pool play.

but why not just put it out of your head. control what you can control, and develop your players.

it is 10u, it is more about development than chasing chunks of plastic.

 

[JLI2010]

but why not just put it out of your head

I agree with this approach.

 

[bmakj]

Man. I'm glad I posted here and not on Facebook! Would have been way worse! We have 11 and bat 11 in all pool and bracket games. Everybody plays. I just want more pitching time for #3 and a new #4 and wish the rules supported it.

but that rule would also support fewer AB for the lesser hitters on a team, same problem, just with different subset of players. cause we need those 2 extra runs this game!

just give them more circle time in pool play, simple as that. problem solved. not having #1 seed the sun will still rise (OK, you might have to watch on your drive in, but it will rise). not being the #1 seed in bracket will not doom the rest of the team to the scrap heaps, or cause anyone to quit the game, etc. but you are going to be looking for a new #3 and #4 pitcher every 6 months in all likelihood.

you are putting WAY too much emphasis on #1 seed in brackets, same as HC. the only time any of DDs coaches have even discussed seeding was a few times, encouraging THE GIRLS to go all out to win a game (but not changing the way they coached or subbed, etc.) so the girls could sleep later the next morning, and it was not even about #1 it was about #4 vs #5 or lower.

 

[JLI2010]

but that rule would also support fewer AB for the lesser hitters on a team, same problem, just with different subset of players. cause we need those 2 extra runs this game!

That wouldnt happen but I agree with the rest. I think that's the answer. It's unlikely that USSSA would change a rule anyway. Thanks for the passionate responses. It's what I was looking for before I posted anything to USSSA.

 

[bmakj]

That wouldnt happen but I agree with the rest. I think that's the answer. It's unlikely that USSSA would change a rule anyway. Thanks for the passionate responses. It's what I was looking for before I posted anything to USSSA.

based on experience.

DD was on a very good 10u team, 3rd in depth chart at her primary position, but got decent playing timeoverall, would have liked more, but it was OK. team was a state runner up, 4th in their USSSA national tournament. FF a few years, team is now good but not near top of heap like it was (not due to DD leaving lol). but they have churned bottom half of roster several times now, only like 3-4 girls left from original team.

TB is for development and exposure. HS and college is where winning is primary focus.

 

[marriard]

My point is one minor rule change and teams can do both. Why have runs allowed be the first tie breaker? I don't get it.

I am in your area... and at the same tournament (though I didn't umpire this age group last weekend). Good little team and a long time good org north of WPB.

I remember when it was run differential first not long ago - even when they changed it to capped. 20-0 games. Teams not run ruling teams because they won 2-0 first game and needed 18 runs to get their differential up. Run ruled games affecting differential in some late-inning. Teams intentionally not scoring to affect their seeding or even letting a team score so they got a better seeeding. Arguments about who knows what some idiot wanted to argue about.

Runs Against has proven to be the best 'first' tiebreaker. Easy, simple and stops people running up scores. Having to stop a runner scoring from third against a bad team with your #3 pitcher and none of your bracket starters in their best positions isn't the worst thing your team should be doing development wise.

This isn't a 'rule' or 'policy' issue for you - it is a coaching staff issue. #1 seed is just not that important.

The only 'win' goal of pool play is to look at the schedule and decide which game(s) you absolutely need to win to not play at 8am Bracket Day and/or get a bye if the bracket offers one.

Apart from that it needs to be play and develop everyone. You should be doing things like:

1. If you have 3 pitchers they get a game each. And a long leash.
2. Your bench plays more than bracket day - starters don't play every inning in the same spot and spend time on the bench.
3. Move girls around. If you have a bench, you should NEVER send the exact field out every inning
4. Change your batting lineups every game. If you are good enough - and I know your team is - just start the next game with who was up last game.

And BTW, when you DO develop the depth; then the #1/#2 seed comes easier as the team is better. And you will win more on Sunday - which frankly is going to be necessary because there are some strength in that age division across the state with Inferno, Stars, Explosion, FC and several other teams

 

[marriard]

Man. I'm glad I posted here and not on Facebook! Would have been way worse! We have 11 and bat 11 in all pool and bracket games. Everybody plays. I just want more pitching time for #3 and a new #4 and wish the rules supported it.

The rules support it fine; your team has just prioritized meaningless pool game wins.

 

[Gags]

We talked about the tiebreaker as a team on Sunday (our first tournament is next weekend). Our HC (I'm AC) had a different perspective on RA vs. RF - with RA (Runs Against), it's more in your control. Runs For (or differential) can sometimes be a crap-shoot - winning 12-0 or 17-5 may be more from the 15 walks issued than from your teams bats. At least with RA, while it could encourage teams to leave their dominant pitcher in longer than needed, it's a slightly better reflection of the overall teams ability to play defense. (Assuming a 10U team isn't using the same pitcher for both pool games?)

We're an 11U team still dealing with almost the same dilemma. Lots of posts here as you mentioned about bracket play not mattering all that much, but I suspect most of those come from strong teams, playing in multiple-bracket (silver / gold / etc) tournaments. In our tournaments, there's a big difference b/w the 1-2 seed and bottom seeds. The top seeds (to USSSA's credit) are teams that are ready to get bumped up to B. Upsets happen, but very rare.

Our first year, we were a 10U RAS (Rec/All-Star). Last year a 10C. This year 11C, with dreams of moving to B. One of our challenges is that C teams only play 2 pool games. Limited games place A LOT more emphasis on the tiebreakers. We're that typical team that has a bad habit of playing down to the level of the competition, and have had more "one and done" Sunday's than any other result, even with a high seed. With only 2 pool games, we don't have the luxury of sitting our strongest players for extended periods of time with the expectation that they'll be playing in multiple games on Sunday. It's a crappy "Catch-22" - we're trying to win on Sat so we have a better seed and better chance at playing more games on Sunday, but even if we manage to win the first bracket game, there's now the pressure to only play / bat the best 9/10 to give us a chance to keep advancing - so our bench players remain our bench players, with maybe some courtesy runner opportunities.

(I better post this - there's already been about 20 posts since I started, and I think Marriard just summed it up in 500 fewer words!)