Rise ball questions

[Chilixa]

My DD is a 12u pitcher and we are just getting started with this pitch. We have focused on her drop/fastball and her change up. Her pitching coach was having her mess with some different grips and pitches to see what direction we wanted to head next in learning a new pitch to see if anything came natural. She kind of accidentally started throwing what the coach called a rise ball and it wasn’t really what I expected. We were using a device to measure spin and she was getting a good 6–12 rotation and averages in the 1200 rpm.

The thing I am unsure of is the pitch was significantly slower than her “fastball” and it felt like it just floated in place at times when I was trying to catch it. I kind of always assumed the rise ball would be a fast pitch. Is speed likely to come later? Or can it work as an effective off speed pitch when she gets good rotation on the ball? I am a little hesitant for her to throw an off speed pitch that could stay high in the strike zone. But I admit it seems pretty deceptive when I catch it.

Any thoughts on this are appreciated. Has anyone DD had success with a slow rise ball? Thanks


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[Tango]

My DD is a 12u pitcher and we are just getting started with this pitch. We have focused on her drop/fastball and her change up. Her pitching coach was having her mess with some different grips and pitches to see what direction we wanted to head next in learning a new pitch to see if anything came natural. She kind of accidentally started throwing what the coach called a rise ball and it wasn’t really what I expected. We were using a device to measure spin and she was getting a good 6–12 rotation and averages in the 1200 rpm.

The thing I am unsure of is the pitch was significantly slower than her “fastball” and it felt like it just floated in place at times when I was trying to catch it. I kind of always assumed the rise ball would be a fast pitch. Is speed likely to come later? Or can it work as an effective off speed pitch when she gets good rotation on the ball? I am a little hesitant for her to throw an off speed pitch that could stay high in the strike zone. But I admit it seems pretty deceptive when I catch it.

Any thoughts on this are appreciated. Has anyone DD had success with a slow rise ball? Thanks


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Limited experience but I have coached a 12 year old with the best rise ball spin I have ever seen. It was very slow and she started throwing it in games at around 14 and everyone thought it was a change up. She is sixteen now and she can throw it slow or a couple of MPH slower than her FB. Very effective and she is not a flame thrower. Great spin.

 

[jsoftballcoach]

There was a recent conversation about this:

Riseball - ball rotation axis

Riseball - ball rotation axis

I read that the most optimal axis for a rise ball is moving 12-6 with "backspin" - viewing the pitch from pitcher to catcher, the ball is rotating clockwise. But watching some videos in slow motion, the axis is definitely not 12-6. in some cases it looks like it is moving way off that, even...

r.tapatalk.com

TL;DR
Better spin on the rise tends to make the pitch a bit slower.

My DD has a pretty good rise and it’s 2-3mph slower than her drop or curve. She throws it “no thumb”


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[Shiloh]

The rise is typically a few mph slower than the fastest pitch, but it's generally not considered an offspeed pitch, as it spins and tunnels differently.

Lots of people will tell you that 60mph is the minimum for a true rise - I have no idea if that's true or not.
But I've seen pitchers (now pitching mid-major D1) in the mid 50s who can fool lots of batters with what they call a rise.

So call it what you want, but slower, spinning pitches can be effective. And that's what matters.

(BTW, your instructor having your DD play around to see what's comfortable for her is . )

 

[MattM]

Stick with it she is on the right track. Its a very effective pitch in games if she get can the spin rate up some and get it over 50. Mix it up with a drop change up and you will see a confused look on batters face. Then go with the inside fastball.

 

[mmeece]

My DD is a 12u pitcher and we are just getting started with this pitch. We have focused on her drop/fastball and her change up. Her pitching coach was having her mess with some different grips and pitches to see what direction we wanted to head next in learning a new pitch to see if anything came natural. She kind of accidentally started throwing what the coach called a rise ball and it wasn’t really what I expected. We were using a device to measure spin and she was getting a good 6–12 rotation and averages in the 1200 rpm.

The thing I am unsure of is the pitch was significantly slower than her “fastball” and it felt like it just floated in place at times when I was trying to catch it. I kind of always assumed the rise ball would be a fast pitch. Is speed likely to come later? Or can it work as an effective off speed pitch when she gets good rotation on the ball? I am a little hesitant for her to throw an off speed pitch that could stay high in the strike zone. But I admit it seems pretty deceptive when I catch it.

Any thoughts on this are appreciated. Has anyone DD had success with a slow rise ball? Thanks


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True rise spin will result in the pitch being a little slower than her fastball. REALLY good rise spin can result in an even bigger difference. That said, there are girls (my dd was one) who find a grip that really works for the rise but slows it down even more to a somewhat off-speed pitch. A girl from Georgia threw one like this a few years ago in the WCWS but I can't remember her name.

 

[DNeeld]

She kind of accidentally started throwing what the coach called a rise ball and it wasn’t really what I expected. We were using a device to measure spin and she was getting a good 6–12 rotation and averages in the 1200 rpm.

Correct spin at 20rps for a 12U player is extremely good. Like far right end of the bell curve good. A proper riseball thrown a little slower will be more effective than the typical "ramp" ball thrown slightly faster in the long run.

Backspin pitches (a.k.a. the elusive riseball) are either thrown over or under the thumb.... and very few ladies are producing this with the former, as many simply don't have the hand size necessary to keep the index under the ball at release.... or their thumb bumps the ball off-axis. Hoover does at times very well. The spin direction is putting resistance against the inertia of the ball... hence the floating or lifting effect it creates. Under the thumb rise balls have lesser spin rates... partly because of the thumb adding friction to the release and also because of the tension necessary in the last kinetic link to get it to spin properly. For comparison's sake... the same pitcher throwing a rise under the thumb at 20 rps... will probably throw over the thumb at 30 rps. Under the thumb riseballs are rare (in college softball)... and usually in the 60+ mph category... to be really special. There is truth, IMO, to the speed necessary to throw this "under the thumb" rise.
Over the thumb riseballs produce incredible spin rates... especially when the thumb is completely removed from the equation. The spin axis is much easier to master... however... in ANY real rise ball, there is a trade-off between spin/speed. The closer you get to the axis, the more accepting of lost speed you will need to become. The key to under the thumb, is maintaining contact with the ball on the meaty part of your hand (under your thumb), while maintaining some wrist flexion. I've seen 47-55 mph "lift-offs" with these... it's a truly special thing to watch. I think 55-60 is the magic number for speed, and I've never seen a spin rate under 20 with this.... and I've seen a bunch of 33+ rps, even upper 30's... and mid-40 rps. When you can get your spin rate on a rise over half the speed, the lift becomes really special.

That's a quote from Javasource from this thread: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/riseball-question.31102/#post-429880

Search around, there is a ton of great information archived around here.

 

[Ken B]

True rise spin will result in the pitch being a little slower than her fastball. REALLY good rise spin can result in an even bigger difference. That said, there are girls (my dd was one) who find a grip that really works for the rise but slows it down even more to a somewhat off-speed pitch. A girl from Georgia threw one like this a few years ago in the WCWS but I can't remember her name.

Chelsea Wilkinson

 

[Ken B]

As already mentioned above, she’s on the right track. Don’t let anyone tell her a backspinning rise is too slow.

 

[Chilixa]

True rise spin will result in the pitch being a little slower than her fastball. REALLY good rise spin can result in an even bigger difference. That said, there are girls (my dd was one) who find a grip that really works for the rise but slows it down even more to a somewhat off-speed pitch. A girl from Georgia threw one like this a few years ago in the WCWS but I can't remember her name.

She isn’t a flame thrower by any means at this point. She just turned 12 and her fastball is around 47-48. But the rise ball (thumb off grip) was at about 35-37 most of the time. I was just really surprised at the difference in speed. It is basically the same speed as her change up.

I appreciate all the responses in this thread. We will keep working on it and see where it goes. I was just hesitant to have her throwing something slow that stayed high in the strike zone. But that may evolve over time.


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