Pushing the envelope for leaving early

[ArmWhip]

I was watching Clemson vs Virginia Tech last night and on a hit and run, which was a hit, the runner left early and was called out. The replay showed her a full step and half off the base at release. The coach was not happy but replay showed it was not even close. I was wondering if the runner was coached that way.

 

[radness]

The batter got a base hit, just befor that, the runner left the base too early and got herself out.
The coach was not happy.
Yep that makes sense.

 

[Cornbread]

I don’t teach to leave early. But I do teach to leave on time. To do this the runner must begin her movement roughly around the time that ball hits the top of the circle by the pitcher. As a runner, the body has to have some prep movement to explode forward. That occurs during the time the ball is coming down the backside of the circle. When it hits the hip we need to be gone. If not even the fastest runners will get thrown out by solid catchers. I don’t view it as cheating. I view it as good coaching. Now, will some runners leave too early? Yes. Will some runners leave too late? Yes.

 

[Lobster Birch]

I’m really struggling with the argument that intentionally leaving early isn’t cheating because the ump doesn’t call it or see it. That’s a bit of a head scratcher. I probably haven’t read enough philosophy books to understand that one.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

I’m really struggling with the argument that intentionally leaving early isn’t cheating because the ump doesn’t call it or see it. That’s a bit of a head scratcher. I probably haven’t read enough philosophy books to understand that one.

It's not a complicated question and it really stems from the pitcher leaping discussion. Do you have a duty as a teammate to maximize effort to achieve victory?

For example if the umpire is going to allow leaping (by not enforcing the rule) or if you have one umpire and therefore they can't enforce you leaving one step early on a steal are you obligated to do so? If you argue that it's "cheating" as it violates the letter of the rule book I can cite dozens of examples of players violating the rule book in any sport on any given play. I also don't see players self policing themselves on judgement calls so I question if it's really about "integrity".

My observation is that you do have a duty as a teammate to do everything during the contest you can do to achieve victory. No, I am not talking about PED's, rolled bats, or any other blatant example of premeditated rule violations. I am not talking about coaches teaching leaving early, throwing spitballs, or sharpening your spikes. Those are clearly all unacceptable premediated rule violations.

In a perfect world you would always have multiple umpires and they would always enforce every rule to the letter of the rule book.

 

[MoJo]

There is NO struggle with this debate. Intentionally leaving early is illegal by rule, its immoral and unethical.

If you are doing, advocating, teaching or struggling with "intentionally leaving early" or are not playing by the rules then you need to leave.

Trying to justify or compare with leaping is wrong and out of date. BTW, allowing leaping is about knee and foot injury prevention.

Good luck cheaters....I am on the look out for you all the time.

I’m really struggling with the argument that intentionally leaving early isn’t cheating because the ump doesn’t call it or see it. That’s a bit of a head scratcher. I probably haven’t read enough philosophy books to understand that one.

It's not a complicated question and it really stems from the pitcher leaping discussion. Do you have a duty as a teammate to maximize effort to achieve victory?

For example if the umpire is going to allow leaping (by not enforcing the rule) or if you have one umpire and therefore they can't enforce you leaving one step early on a steal are you obligated to do so? If you argue that it's "cheating" as it violates the letter of the rule book I can cite dozens of examples of players violating the rule book in any sport on any given play. I also don't see players self policing themselves on judgement calls so I question if it's really about "integrity".

My observation is that you do have a duty as a teammate to do everything during the contest you can do to achieve victory. No, I am not talking about PED's, rolled bats, or any other blatant example of premeditated rule violations. I am not talking about coaches teaching leaving early, throwing spitballs, or sharpening your spikes. Those are clearly all unacceptable premediated rule violations.

In a perfect world you would always have multiple umpires and they would always enforce every rule to the letter of the rule book.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

There is NO struggle with this debate. Intentionally leaving early is illegal by rule, its immoral and unethical.

So you think those college coaches referenced above were "mad" because his/her players were now "immoral and unethical" because they left early? Or they were mad they got caught?

So the argument is it's "OK" to leave early as long as you don't coach it and the runner didn't intend to do it. Got it. It's not the act itself of leaving early it's whether the runner "intended to". Got it.

I will try that argument the next time I am in a dispute with the umpire. "Well I didn't teach her to leap off the mound. She didn't intend to leap. Everything is good right?"

 

[Vertigo]

So the argument is it's "OK" to leave early as long as you don't coach it and the runner didn't intend to do it. Got it. It's not the act itself of leaving early it's whether the runner "intended to". Got it.

And in this example - no one is aware that it’s happening - the coach doesn‘t teach it so has no idea their player did it, the player didn’t do it intentionally so probably has no idea she did it, and the umpire missed it - so who is to say the player even left early? In this situation, it is not cheating.

We are talking about coaches who instruct their players to do it on purpose, and to especially take advantage of a one-umpire situation where 9/10 times it won‘t get called, even when Mr. Magoo can see it happening from left field. This is cheating.

Again, continuing to defend deliberate cheating is absurd.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

And in this example - no one is aware that it’s happening - the coach doesn‘t teach it so has no idea their player did it, the player didn’t do it intentionally

What if my player does it intentionally? The most realistic situation is that in a one umpire scenario my catcher or first baseman would comment, "hey their team is leaving a step or two early". Their players and my players are now leaving one step early. Neither team has an advantage, that's simply how this game is played out.

I have had pitchers complain about the other teams pitcher leaping. I tell them they can leap to if they would like, understanding this is not realistic. It's simply how the game is being officiated.

The fault I have is with the umpires and tournament directors to some extent. I am certainly not going around calling other teams "cheaters" and impugn their integrity.

You can say that you go by the letter of the rule book, and that's fine. The next time I see a coach/player/parent pull their own child off the field when they get the benefit of "cheating" it will be the first time.

 

[Vertigo]

You can say that you go by the letter of the rule book, and that's fine. The next time I see a coach/player/parent pull their own child off the field when they get the benefit of "cheating" it will be the first time.

That coach/player/parent won’t because obviously they are all on the same page if the coach instructs it, the player obliges, and the parent looks the other way.