People behind the plate calling out where the catcher is set up.

[Comp]

Aside from the different details that are being discussed.

@Comp question please.
Have you ever seen an Umpire stop a game?

Yes, I have seen games stopped, but to get site director involved and handle the situation not the umpire and it has never been anything to do with people yelling things to players. It has been fans getting into it with each other or one time a kid was walking around pointing a laser pointer at players. I have stopped a game to tell the coaches to handle their parents when f bombs started flying back and forth with threats being made, but never about people yelling instructions from the stands.

I have on 2 or 3 occasions put coaches back in the dugout, but they were actual coaches not spectators.

 

[RADcatchers]

Yes, I have seen games stopped,

I have stopped a game to tell the coaches to handle their parents

 

[Rolling Hard]

I don't care what the rules say. If an ump, calls the HC over and kindly informed him that if his parents don't stop what they are doing immediately and completely he is going to call the game, 99.9 % of the time the HC will handle the situation. He not going to argue rules or ask for the TD.
In the rare case that the ump calls the game and is later scolded by the TD for doing so, who cares. There is a shortage of umpires and you'll be assigned next week.
Handle it Blue.
Funny true story:
Ump ejects HC. AC goes out and ask why did you throw the HC out. Ump replies, he call me a piece of shirt. AC says, you are a piece of shirt. BALL GAME!
Grown men can be really stupid.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Hmm, so yelling things from the stands at players that aren't your child is coaching, but yelling at your own child is not? And how exactly do you determine the parentage at any given point in the game?

Do tell, exactly how many spectators have you sent to the dugout in your career? Not coaches, spectators. Yes, I have sent coaches back to the dugout on several occasions but never have I attempted to twist the rule into something it is not.

How many have actually gone to the dugout? None. How many have stopped coaching from the bleachers? Every one that I have directed the HC to provide the options to. Yes, I have.

Yelling to Suzy to choke up (or repeating any of the stupid cliches that parents love to repeat because it makes them sound smart) or move back is parenting. Sure, it is coaching advice coming from a parent. If that is the only player that fan is saying it to, then it is a safe bet that is their kid. Providing detailed information to multiple kids that come up, that is coaching the team. That happens from the dugout.

 

[The Man In Blue]

whoever thinks that Blue has no control over the stands / spectators, needs to wake up.

Comp is correct in NFHS. We have NO authority over the fans in NFHS sports. That is not to say we are powerless, as we stop the game and direct the site director to take care of it, but we have no direct power over fans.

During a JV double-header this past spring, I was working the second game with a brand new umpire . . . as in this was literally his 5th game ever (3 of those were with no partner . . . I don't know how that is allowed to happen, but different soap box). He worked the plate. While it wasn't pretty, I thought he did as good as a novice in his place could do. The coaches, who were usually very laid back guys, didn't agree with my assessment. Their behavior was atrocious and all focused on my partner.

Finally, I had had enough. I call TIME! and bring the coaches together at the plate. I provide them an ultimatum: "Guys, we can finish this game up OR we can pack up and leave you to continue and bitch and scream at each other for the remainder of the time limit. We are not doing both."

At that point, a fan chirps up and says something (I honestly have no idea what). The HTHC looks at me and says, "What are you going to do about that?"

Me: "Nothing."

HTHC: "What do you mean, 'nothing'?"

Me: "I mean nothing. NFHS took away our ability to deal with fans."

HTHC: "You are kidding me."

Me: "Nope."

HTHC: "So who has deal with the fans when they act like that?"

Me: "Your game administrator."

HTHC: "This is JV on a Saturday, the school isn't sending an administrator."

Me: "Not a school administrator, a game administrator."

HTHC: "They ain't sending one of those either, so who deals with them?"

Me: "If there isn't a designated game administrator, that duty falls on the home team's head coach."

Now you can see the look on his face . . . the gears are starting to turn . . . maybe a little steam floats out of his ears . . .

HTHC: "So, you are telling me that it is my job? You are telling me I can throw out all of their fans and there is nothing you can do about it?"

The VTHC starts to looks uncomfortable.

Me: "Bingo."

HTHC turns to look at the stands. VTHC really starts to squirm.

Me: "Are we playing ball or are Jim and I done here for today?"

Sanity creeps back in . . . HTHC says sheepishly, "Playing ball?"

VTHC says, "Playing ball."

 

[The Man In Blue]

Yes, I have seen games stopped, but to get site director involved and handle the situation not the umpire and it has never been anything to do with people yelling things to players. It has been fans getting into it with each other or one time a kid was walking around pointing a laser pointer at players. I have stopped a game to tell the coaches to handle their parents when f bombs started flying back and forth with threats being made, but never about people yelling instructions from the stands.

I have on 2 or 3 occasions put coaches back in the dugout, but they were actual coaches not spectators.

I am not trying to turn this into "one of those" discussions, but why would you break your rule for this? If you contend we have no control or care about the things outside the fence, why do we care if fans are using salty language?

We both agree that NFHS does not allow us to deal with spectators, and we both agree the rules are clear that coaches, players, and team personnel must stay in their dugout.

You keep contending that a person coaching from the stands is not a coach. I contend they are. Can you provide me a definition that says a person coaching from the bleachers is not a coach? I can find a definition of team personnel (nebulously stating it is members of the team in the dugout) and a rule saying team personnel must be in the dugout or team area.

Are you OK with a known assistant coach not wearing team gear (or maybe wearing team gear) going and sitting behind the backstop and coaching during the game? What if he never entered the dugout before that?

You say you have put coaches back in the dugout . . . how do you know they were still coaches? Maybe they were done coaching and were spectators?

 

[LEsoftballdad]

Comp is correct in NFHS. We have NO authority over the fans in NFHS sports. That is not to say we are powerless, as we stop the game and direct the site director to take care of it, but we have no direct power over fans.

NY didn't get the memo. I've seen umpires throw fans out the last several years, including this spring. Most of the time it was for questioning calls in a rather salty manner, which I'll admit I'm guilty of doing from time to time. Several times I've seen them ask the HC or AD to address the issue.

When the AD gets involved, then it gets really interesting. Since he's not actively part of the game, he feels he can do whatever he wants. He might even have a bit of a Napoleon complex. It's a good thing he's now retired and I'm done with HS ball.

I just remembered you once told me that NY doesn't follow NFHS rules. They follow USA. I wonder if they allow umpires to deal with fans still.

 

[Comp]

I am not trying to turn this into "one of those" discussions, but why would you break your rule for this? If you contend we have no control or care about the things outside the fence, why do we care if fans are using salty language?

We both agree that NFHS does not allow us to deal with spectators, and we both agree the rules are clear that coaches, players, and team personnel must stay in their dugout.

You keep contending that a person coaching from the stands is not a coach. I contend they are. Can you provide me a definition that says a person coaching from the bleachers is not a coach? I can find a definition of team personnel (nebulously stating it is members of the team in the dugout) and a rule saying team personnel must be in the dugout or team area.

Are you OK with a known assistant coach not wearing team gear (or maybe wearing team gear) going and sitting behind the backstop and coaching during the game? What if he never entered the dugout before that?

You say you have put coaches back in the dugout . . . how do you know they were still coaches? Maybe they were done coaching and were spectators?

You don't want to turn it into one of those discussions yet you are the one that did by making the jump to spectators yelling things to the players makes them coaches.

Spectators are not team personnel. So you say you have told coaches to have the person stop or they will have to be in the dugout. What are you going to do if the coach tells you they aren't a coach, just an annoying spectator he has nothing to do with?

And I'm still perplexed that a parent yelling things to their own kid isn't coaching but yelling it to anyone else is. I ask again, how exactly do you determine parentage on the fly as to what is coaching and what is not?

Why did I stop a game for salty language? Because when the f bombs started being screamed back and forth and threats being made the players all stopped to stare at the stands. The situation was going to get completely out of hand if it wasn't addressed immediately by the coaches. I had no idea where the site administrator was and what made the situation even worse was one of the people screaming f bombs was an off duty police officer in uniform. It was a choice of having the coaches address it or stop the game and remove the players from the field.

How did I know they were coaches when I put them back in dugout? Because I had either seen them coaching with the team previously in the tournament and it was brought to my attention by the opposing coach they were in the stands or one time I had a catcher looking into stands before every pitch. I asked her if that was her coach and she confirmed it was.

This thread started as a question about someone yelling out catcher positioning. I'm assuming most likely just yelling inside/outside. Are you really going to consider that to be coaching? Because if you do as I have already said you are just going to have to put the entire stands in the dugout .

 

[RADcatchers]

That push back chatter ...is an example of how whether there's a rule set written down or whether there's one umpire or another person who considers themselves an Umpire or yada yada...

there are simply different perspectives people take on how to control a situation.

of course there are going to be individual differences in umpires in their judgment in handling situations. Differences in patience, tolerance, perspectives and interpretations that create their final result.

Fact
Truth
Reality

 

[The Man In Blue]

You don't want to turn it into one of those discussions yet you are the one that did by making the jump to spectators yelling things to the players makes them coaches.

Spectators are not team personnel. So you say you have told coaches to have the person stop or they will have to be in the dugout. What are you going to do if the coach tells you they aren't a coach, just an annoying spectator he has nothing to do with?

Just say you don't want to deal with this, it is OK. I am telling you my experience (not a one off occurrence) and how it is handled in my area. I work with plenty of umpires that don't want to take care of business when it needs taken care of. It's OK.

As for the parent thing, I don't know what else to tell you. You don't want to deal with this, so you are not going to listen to any answer that is given. Again, that is OK for your field.

You are all over the place on this though. "Don't have anything to do with the crowd," until you deem them too rowdy or recognize a dad who maybe helped out two weeks ago when another coach was out. He is a coach just because you deem him to be one? Applying your logic, why do you have an issue with the catcher looking to her dad . . . or maybe it is the pitcher's dad and he is calling pitches?

What happens when the coach tells me the person isn't a coach? Then I inform(ed) him the person was coaching, so he can tell them to stop or he can tell them to get in his dugout. Those are the two options. If the person does not get in the dugout and continues to coach, we have no recourse but to eject the coaches -- both of them -- since they refused to comply. Never had to see that through to the end, but am not afraid to take care of it if I need to.