Obstruction question

[FB Fool]

wow thanks for all the great explanations. we were all a little confused at the time, but sounds like they made the right call. I guess it should have argued more (for us) that the runner would have been home first if not for the obstruction, then the batter tagged out trying to reach second. at any rate it didnt effect the outcome of the game it was just one of those odd plays.

 

[jackfrost]

At least in USA softball rules (8.5.B.4. effect) you would award home if you judge the runner would have reached home, had there been no obstruction, before the out at 2B (the 3rd out). The wording of the rule is: "The obstructed runner and all other runners shall always be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there been no obstruction."

P.S. I added the underline of "shall always" for emphasis.

Also, there was a comment about not verbalizing an obstruction call. It is important to verbalize because the runner, defense and coach all need to know you saw it. Those participants are not looking at the umpire for a signal, they are focused on other things like the ball, the base, the defender, etc. If a runner is obstructed but the umpire didn't see it, the runner would be putting themselves at risk if they try to advance. The umpire needs to let the players in the vicinity of the play know the umpire saw the obstruction. Don't have to announce it to the whole stadium but it does need to be a verbal along with the arm signal.

 

[Rolling Hard]

I will piggyback on this thread.
Runner on 1st, line drive to RCF. Runner goes to 3rd and is obstructed by 3rd baseman. Runner kinda pops up slide and the ump continues to hold his fist out. Third baseman is still sorta in the runner's way, so coach sends her home where she is out by a mile. Now what?

 

[The Man In Blue]

I will piggyback on this thread.
Runner on 1st, line drive to RCF. Runner goes to 3rd and is obstructed by 3rd baseman. Runner kinda pops up slide and the ump continues to hold his fist out. Third baseman is still sorta in the runner's way, so coach sends her home where she is out by a mile. Now what?

This is where you have to dig into the language of the rule ... an obstructed runner cannot be called out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred.

First question, did she tag up properly? If not, she is still subject to be called out upon a proper appeal at first base.

Second question ... probably the tricky one ... where did the obstruction occur? Second to third base OR third going to home? You said she was obstructed "going in to third" so I think our answer is clearly second going in to third. That is where she is protected.

Third question ... Would the runner have reached home if she had not been obstructed? From your description, the answer is clearly "no". Since she advanced beyond the base she would have reached (and where she was protected), she is no longer protected.

Bad coach. She's out. She's still out.

 

[EdLovrich]

Lets look at things that are certain here:

- There is an obstruction call between third and home; that is a delayed dead ball and the runner is protected between third and home, There is NO guaranteed base award.
- Obstruction doesn't protect other runners, so the runner going to second is going to be out.

Ok - runner at 2B is the third out; so now what do I do with the runner who was obstructed:

- Decision 1: What base would the runner have reached safely if it were not for the obstruction? If I decided that she wasn't going to reach home and was going to put the runner, then no run scores.
- Decision 2: I decided the runner would have reached home, so I plan to award home after the play for the obstruction. Now it is a timing play, and I am going to have to decide whether they would have reached home before the out at second actually occurred. That is totally my judgement and I would want to be certain. Have to be there to make that decision. So the run may or many not score depending on what the umpire judges would have happened.


I couldn't find a specific case in my case book to cover this specifically; so I am going to go with the above which is how I would have ruled on the field. And I like when @The Man In Blue has the same post

Just now seeing this post so need to chime in, ask a few questions of Marriard: You stated "Obstruction doesn't protect other runners, so the runner going to second is going to be out." Except, the obstruction call CAN under certain circumstances, protect any other runner to the base they would have achieved absent the obstruction (but not beyond).

Example: Let's use the OP as a starting point, Defensive team is up one run, last inning. Fielders and coaches all state pre-play that they need to cut down the run at the plate, as the 'weak liner' is hit C is calling for the throw to the plate. Once the obstruction occurs (and R2 is most likely not going to advance to H)) and the C recognizes this she calls, "Cut 2, Cut 2". Now the BR gets tagged out on a throw that would and should have gone through to the plate.

Conclusion, the out at 2B is a direct result of the obstruction by the 3B as absent that action, there would have been no throw to 2B (it would have gone to the plate for the play there to prevent the tying run from scoring).

Result(?): BR safe at 2B, R2 scores.

I know this is a whole lot of added info not related to the OP, and as such has no bearing on the answer to that question (although it could, we do not have all of the pertinent info).

How would other Us rule in this complicated, nuanced, contrived situation? Does anyone else enjoy playing "Stump the Ump" or are these deep dives convoluted and confusing?

 

[marriard]

Just now seeing this post so need to chime in, ask a few questions of Marriard: You stated "Obstruction doesn't protect other runners, so the runner going to second is going to be out." Except, the obstruction call CAN under certain circumstances, protect any other runner to the base they would have achieved absent the obstruction (but not beyond).

Example: Let's use the OP as a starting point, Defensive team is up one run, last inning. Fielders and coaches all state pre-play that they need to cut down the run at the plate, as the 'weak liner' is hit C is calling for the throw to the plate. Once the obstruction occurs (and R2 is most likely not going to advance to H)) and the C recognizes this she calls, "Cut 2, Cut 2". Now the BR gets tagged out on a throw that would and should have gone through to the plate.

Conclusion, the out at 2B is a direct result of the obstruction by the 3B as absent that action, there would have been no throw to 2B (it would have gone to the plate for the play there to prevent the tying run from scoring).

Result(?): BR safe at 2B, R2 scores.

I know this is a whole lot of added info not related to the OP, and as such has no bearing on the answer to that question (although it could, we do not have all of the pertinent info).

How would other Us rule in this complicated, nuanced, contrived situation? Does anyone else enjoy playing "Stump the Ump" or are these deep dives convoluted and confusing?

Other than the player being obstructed (who has limited protection), there is no mention of any other runner being being protected by obstruction. so if the fielders cut a throw and get the runner that is trying to get to a base on her own running, that has to be out. I can't think of any rule situation or case play that says otherwise. I don't see how to call it any other way.

Maybe you have a rule in mind to support your call?

 

[EdLovrich]

Other than the player being obstructed (who has limited protection), there is no mention of any other runner being being protected by obstruction. so if the fielders cut a throw and get the runner that is trying to get to a base on her own running, that has to be out. I can't think of any rule situation or case play that says otherwise. I don't see how to call it any other way.

Maybe you have a rule in mind to support your call?

NFHS 8.4.3 (b) PENALTY: .... c. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base, is obstructed by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to make an initial play on a batted ball, or a fielder who fakes a tag without the ball, the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction, will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction.

USA 8.5.B.4 Effect 1 similar language

NCAA only addresses placing other runners if the the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base they would have been awarded due to the obstruction.

EFFECT—(9.5.3.1 to 9.5.3.6)

...If the obstructed player is not put out and does not reach the base they should have had there been no obstruction, at the end of playing action they are awarded the appropriate base(s). If the obstructed player is put out before reaching the base they should have reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called at the time of the apparent putout and the obstructed player and each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base(s) they should have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction

 

[The Man In Blue]

Just now seeing this post so need to chime in, ask a few questions of Marriard: You stated "Obstruction doesn't protect other runners, so the runner going to second is going to be out." Except, the obstruction call CAN under certain circumstances, protect any other runner to the base they would have achieved absent the obstruction (but not beyond).

Example: Let's use the OP as a starting point, Defensive team is up one run, last inning. Fielders and coaches all state pre-play that they need to cut down the run at the plate, as the 'weak liner' is hit C is calling for the throw to the plate. Once the obstruction occurs (and R2 is most likely not going to advance to H)) and the C recognizes this she calls, "Cut 2, Cut 2". Now the BR gets tagged out on a throw that would and should have gone through to the plate.

Conclusion, the out at 2B is a direct result of the obstruction by the 3B as absent that action, there would have been no throw to 2B (it would have gone to the plate for the play there to prevent the tying run from scoring).

Result(?): BR safe at 2B, R2 scores.

I know this is a whole lot of added info not related to the OP, and as such has no bearing on the answer to that question (although it could, we do not have all of the pertinent info).

How would other Us rule in this complicated, nuanced, contrived situation? Does anyone else enjoy playing "Stump the Ump" or are these deep dives convoluted and confusing?

Yes, I do love playing this game! Yes, they are convoluted and confusing ... which means "FUN!"

No, I don't agree with your ruling or protecting the BR in that case. I understand your logic, but I don't agree with it. The play can change after the obstruction, that does not mean the obstruction changed the play.

The only instance I can think of where I would award "un-impacted" runners would be if the obstruction set up a roadblock that prevented other runners from advancing ... such as the example in another thread where the obstruction left the lead runner incapacitated, but the trailing runner continued. If that trail runner had retreated to third instead of continuing home, but it was evident she would have scored, then I could see awarding the "un-impacted" runner bases.

 

[The Man In Blue]

At least in USA softball rules (8.5.B.4. effect) you would award home if you judge the runner would have reached home, had there been no obstruction, before the out at 2B (the 3rd out). The wording of the rule is: "The obstructed runner and all other runners shall always be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there been no obstruction."

P.S. I added the underline of "shall always" for emphasis.

Also, there was a comment about not verbalizing an obstruction call. It is important to verbalize because the runner, defense and coach all need to know you saw it. Those participants are not looking at the umpire for a signal, they are focused on other things like the ball, the base, the defender, etc. If a runner is obstructed but the umpire didn't see it, the runner would be putting themselves at risk if they try to advance. The umpire needs to let the players in the vicinity of the play know the umpire saw the obstruction. Don't have to announce it to the whole stadium but it does need to be a verbal along with the arm signal.

As I re-read some of the replies, something here caught my eye ... I would suggest underlining a different part of that.

"The obstructed runner and all other runners shall always be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there been no obstruction."

The reason I would emphasize that part over the "shall always" is to emphasize the point of the award NOT being an automatic advance (like baseball). Sometimes the correct award is to place the runner back to the last base she touched.