NFHS- International Tiebreaker- runner question

[jackfrost]

What annoyed me one 8u tournament when coaching was the player to be placed on 2B was the catcher, so the coach courtesy ran for her. This is 8u.

If the rules allowed it, why is it an issue. Some 8U tournaments I have seen lately require batting round robing (all players) and courtesy runners for pitcher and catcher of record. If its allowed by rule it is just part of the game.

 

[MoJo]

If the rules allowed it, why is it an issue. Some 8U tournaments I have seen lately require batting round robing (all players) and courtesy runners for pitcher and catcher of record. If its allowed by rule it is just part of the game.

Just because the rule book doesn't forbid...doesn't make it right. The title itself sets some big limits on who participates.

Why would any adult take the place of a 7 year old during their activity ?!?!?!?!

 

[jackfrost]

Just because the rule book doesn't forbid...doesn't make it right. The title itself sets some big limits on who participates.

Why would any adult take the place of a 7 year old during their activity ?!?!?!?!

probably going to go down a rabbit hole on this one, but there are plenty of reasons. 1) if the catcher is left on base at end of inning it will delay starting the next half inning, 2) the catcher is involved in every pitch, why not give other kids an opportunity to participate in the action, 3) the catcher plays every pitch, lets preserve her and not wear her out on the bases when we need her rested for the next inning behind the plate, 4) maybe she is just down right slow and we need to put the team in a better position to win the game so the team continues in the tournament and we all benefit. Hope this helps.

 

[The Man In Blue]

If the rules allowed it, why is it an issue. Some 8U tournaments I have seen lately require batting round robing (all players) and courtesy runners for pitcher and catcher of record. If its allowed by rule it is just part of the game.

The rules don't allow it (in most codes).

To be eligible for a courtesy runner, a pitcher or batter must reach base via a completed at bat.

NFHS 8-9-2
USSSA 8-3-G
USA 8-10-A1

 

[The Man In Blue]

probably going to go down a rabbit hole on this one, but there are plenty of reasons. 1) if the catcher is left on base at end of inning it will delay starting the next half inning, 2) the catcher is involved in every pitch, why not give other kids an opportunity to participate in the action, 3) the catcher plays every pitch, lets preserve her and not wear her out on the bases when we need her rested for the next inning behind the plate, 4) maybe she is just down right slow and we need to put the team in a better position to win the game so the team continues in the tournament and we all benefit. Hope this helps.

Only one of those is a valid reason to use a courtesy runner, and most of the time it doesn't work. Another is a quasi-valid reason that has better solutions.

The other half of those answers are BS a coach spews to try to gain an advantage.

"I believe there ought to be a Constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the courtesy runner." -- Crash Davis

 

[Agcy]

Not overthinking it at all. This is why tournaments need to really think things through if they are messing with the rulebook. Usually this is more the case with courtesy runners than tie-breaks.

Last out = whoever made the last out in any fashion (so a runner caught stealing would count)
Last batted out = last batter who completed an at bat but did not successfully reach base
Furthest removed = the person in the batting lineup immediately before the batter who is leading off the inning

Here is a fun one ... If they are using "last out" and R1 is put out on a ground ball ... who made the last out? R1 or the batter?

Umpires need to know what the tournament is doing and be proactive. It will save headaches.

To the OP's question about NFHS though, NFHS does not have a tiebreaker provision. They allow states to adopt their own, so there is not a standard here.

Another situation is if you are only playing with 8 players and the missing player was the last out.

When you start your turn at bat, do you put the missing player (IE no one) at second? One reason whey last available batter makes sense.

Happened to us in champ game one weekend - of course the other coach insisted that we leave 2nd empty...

 

[Comp]

The rules don't allow it (in most codes).

To be eligible for a courtesy runner, a pitcher or batter must reach base via a completed at bat.

NFHS 8-9-2
USSSA 8-3-G
USA 8-10-A1

The rules require the pitcher and catcher to earn their own way on base in order to have a courtesy runner. Being the player to be placed on 2nd in a tie breaker is considered to have earned their way on base and they are entitled to a courtesy runner. USA has a case play on it or rule clarification. NFHS also has the same wording under 8-9-2 (or earn the base).

 

[The Man In Blue]

The rules require the pitcher and catcher to earn their own way on base in order to have a courtesy runner. Being the player to be placed on 2nd in a tie breaker is considered to have earned their way on base and they are entitled to a courtesy runner. USA has a case play on it or rule clarification. NFHS also has the same wording under 8-9-2 (or earn the base).

You are correct about the USA case play (had to go back to April of 2014).


Not sure I agree that the wording says that, but there you go. I'd be curious about NFHS (I don't have a softball casebook ...).

 

[Comp]

You are correct about the USA case play (had to go back to April of 2014).
View attachment 28023

Not sure I agree that the wording says that, but there you go. I'd be curious about NFHS (I don't have a softball casebook ...).

Since NFHS doesnt have a tie breaker rule there wouldnt be an case play on it. It is by state adoption. I am not aware of a ruleset which uses the tie breaker that does not allow a courtesy runner for the pitcher or catcher. USSSA has the same ruling as USA unless they changed it in last 4 years or so.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Duh ... right after I pointed that out. Thank you for serving as some form of order and regulation for my brain @Comp !