- Oct 24, 2010
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Illegal pitch. 
Interference Rule on Slide into Catcher
- Thread starter echung12
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- May 29, 2015
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SOOOO much to unpack here ... some of it will be controverisal.
Let's start with the play. Let's get the controversial parts of of the way. By rule, I do not see that the slide was clearly illegal. Sadly, NFHS Softball does NOT include the "in a direct line" requirement (NFHS Baseball does and it would have applied here).
NFHS Rule 2 Definitions
Section 35 Malicious Contact Malicious contact is an act that involves excessive force with an opponent.
Section 52 Slide: Legal , Illegal
Article 1 Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If the runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
Article 2 Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a.) the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the the fielder;
b.) the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c.) the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d.) the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e.) the runner tires to injure the fielder.
"Slide" is used 17 times in the rulebook. Most of those uses are above. Two are in the dead ball table. One refers to the pitcher sliding her foot. Then we come back to a runner rule ...
8.6 tells us when runners are out. Section 13 (so 8.6.13) references the above definitions and essentially just tells us the penalty -- the runner is out if: "The runner does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of the fielder in the immediate act of making a play on her. Runners are never required to slide, but if the runner elects to slide, the slide shall be legal.
(8.6.14 makes the "on her feet" reference to malicious contact, but as we see in the definitions, "on her feet" is NOT a requirement for malicious contact.)
SO ... She slid feet first. She had (or was in the process of getting) one leg and her buttock on the ground. She did not go above the fielder's knee. She did not slash or kick out. She was within reach of home plate. She did not go cross-body or roll. Contact did not occur beyond the base. Nothing illegal yet.
Possibly illegal (judgment calls): You essentially have to rely on the outcome to dub this illegal. Which brings us back to malicious contact. I don't see any question that she was aiming to take the catcher out. Was the catcher set up improperly? Yes. In fact, there is a potential obstruction call IF the timing was different. Even though the catcher was "blocking the plate" before receiving the throw, the runner was not close enough for that to be a factor. By the time the runner did get to where it mattered, the catcher had the ball, had made the force out, and was in the act of attempting another play.
SO ... We can look at runner interference or retired runner interference (depending on when you want to change her status -- I would say she still is a runner since she was still acting in her duties as a runner; though she was technically retired first). I'm good with calling the runner out AND potentially a second out based on these rules.
Not that I want people to eject themselves from my games, but I would like to think I have an ejection here (with at least one more likely to follow) on the malicious contact. In slow motion, there is no question what the runner was doing. However, the play and contact happens fast in real time, so I will honestly say I could miss this (as the runner scooted quickly afterwards). What I would hope that I would have is a crew meeting to get more information before announcing she has removed herself from the contest.
As for the umpire ... Oof. Brother, what are you doing? I'm OK with the drop back since the play is unfolding quickly and it is a force. But what are you pointing at? Was that an out? Or was it obstruction (baseball mechanic, not softball)? Was it interference? Did you drop something that you are asking the catcher to pick up? Are you a hobby entomologist and there was a rare beetle crawling across home plate? Perhaps a monolith is popping up and you are stunned? What is it man!?
And why do you look like you either fell asleep or had a gran mal seizure? What are you doing? He just stands there for nearly a full minute, staring into space. Kill the ball, call the coach out, and get the hell out of the way while the coach is checking on the player. If they have moved away from the plate, clean it!
Let's start with the play. Let's get the controversial parts of of the way. By rule, I do not see that the slide was clearly illegal. Sadly, NFHS Softball does NOT include the "in a direct line" requirement (NFHS Baseball does and it would have applied here).
NFHS Rule 2 Definitions
Section 35 Malicious Contact Malicious contact is an act that involves excessive force with an opponent.
Section 52 Slide: Legal , Illegal
Article 1 Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If the runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
Article 2 Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a.) the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the the fielder;
b.) the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c.) the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d.) the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e.) the runner tires to injure the fielder.
"Slide" is used 17 times in the rulebook. Most of those uses are above. Two are in the dead ball table. One refers to the pitcher sliding her foot. Then we come back to a runner rule ...
8.6 tells us when runners are out. Section 13 (so 8.6.13) references the above definitions and essentially just tells us the penalty -- the runner is out if: "The runner does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of the fielder in the immediate act of making a play on her. Runners are never required to slide, but if the runner elects to slide, the slide shall be legal.
(8.6.14 makes the "on her feet" reference to malicious contact, but as we see in the definitions, "on her feet" is NOT a requirement for malicious contact.)
SO ... She slid feet first. She had (or was in the process of getting) one leg and her buttock on the ground. She did not go above the fielder's knee. She did not slash or kick out. She was within reach of home plate. She did not go cross-body or roll. Contact did not occur beyond the base. Nothing illegal yet.
Possibly illegal (judgment calls): You essentially have to rely on the outcome to dub this illegal. Which brings us back to malicious contact. I don't see any question that she was aiming to take the catcher out. Was the catcher set up improperly? Yes. In fact, there is a potential obstruction call IF the timing was different. Even though the catcher was "blocking the plate" before receiving the throw, the runner was not close enough for that to be a factor. By the time the runner did get to where it mattered, the catcher had the ball, had made the force out, and was in the act of attempting another play.
SO ... We can look at runner interference or retired runner interference (depending on when you want to change her status -- I would say she still is a runner since she was still acting in her duties as a runner; though she was technically retired first). I'm good with calling the runner out AND potentially a second out based on these rules.
Not that I want people to eject themselves from my games, but I would like to think I have an ejection here (with at least one more likely to follow) on the malicious contact. In slow motion, there is no question what the runner was doing. However, the play and contact happens fast in real time, so I will honestly say I could miss this (as the runner scooted quickly afterwards). What I would hope that I would have is a crew meeting to get more information before announcing she has removed herself from the contest.
As for the umpire ... Oof. Brother, what are you doing? I'm OK with the drop back since the play is unfolding quickly and it is a force. But what are you pointing at? Was that an out? Or was it obstruction (baseball mechanic, not softball)? Was it interference? Did you drop something that you are asking the catcher to pick up? Are you a hobby entomologist and there was a rare beetle crawling across home plate? Perhaps a monolith is popping up and you are stunned? What is it man!?
And why do you look like you either fell asleep or had a gran mal seizure? What are you doing? He just stands there for nearly a full minute, staring into space. Kill the ball, call the coach out, and get the hell out of the way while the coach is checking on the player. If they have moved away from the plate, clean it!
runner from 3B was out prior to any contact on force out at home, cannot be obstruction, runner was retired prior.
pretty certain contact was malicious, do not think remaining on your feet is required (if runner sliding brought metal cleats up high, would that not be malicious, even though on ground?)
Only if above the knee, per the rule.
Contact is NOT required for obstruction to be called, and what is it you are saying the runner was out prior to?
It would be an illegal slide and the rules for that would require the interference call. The problem with calling MC during a slide is that MC requires intent. If you are going to eject a player, you had better be 100% certain that intent is present. It is just too hard to be sure of that if the player slid, in fact sliding will USUALLY indicate a desire to minimize contact (IMO). Does the rule book say there CANNOT be MC during a slide? No. But a runner had better be coming in like Ty Cobb with leg slashing and not just spikes high.
radness
Possibilities & Opportunities!
- Dec 13, 2019
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Aside of rule-sets.
Had the catcher stepped forward into her throw...instead of exchanging feet
(swivle in place)
and re-planting her foot still in the path...appears no contact would have been made because catchers/feet/body would have vacated away from the slide/issue.
Think through throwing mechanics on this!!!
image shows
Exchange of catchers feet.
Right foot goes where left foot was.
Completly unnecessary and clearly stepping forward (towards first) would have vacated area...
Had the catcher stepped forward into her throw...instead of exchanging feet
(swivle in place)
and re-planting her foot still in the path...appears no contact would have been made because catchers/feet/body would have vacated away from the slide/issue.
Think through throwing mechanics on this!!!
image shows
Exchange of catchers feet.
Right foot goes where left foot was.
Completly unnecessary and clearly stepping forward (towards first) would have vacated area...
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runner was out prior to any obstruction occuring. defense can "block" all day long until the runner approaches. then they must provide a path. since this runner was well before coming in to the base, cannot be obstruction. would be like calling obstruction on 1B for being on bag for a strech, then moving off once they realized no play to allow runner to round to second. timing makes all the difference.
sorry, this was MC. no other intent other than to take her legs out, when she had no need to be sliding into her (ie was already out before she started slide). was not trying to reach base safely, was trying to interfere deliberately (ie INTENT), and was doing so in a very dangerous way. if you dont protect catchers, pretty soon there will be none, they will all be in rehab. coaches need to stop trying to push the envelope on dirty baserunning, calling it what it is, dirty. flagrant disregard for rules and safety is dirty, not tough, not aggressive, but dirty. wonder how that baserunner and coach would feel if she had slid behind catcher, and catcher stepped backward with no need to and cleated her?
radness
Possibilities & Opportunities!
- Dec 13, 2019
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Can see the slide.
Not really a big deal imo.
Feet down.
Its a sport where contact happens.
Rules apply one way or the other...
Regardless if your talking 'intent' then question all actions.
The catcher needs to take responsibility for what she did staying in the way.
She should be toward the front of left side batters box into her throw.
But didnt and swivled/exchanged feet directly in the way.
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RE: Obstruction. Look at the top frame in RadCatchers post above. the runner is 2 steps from the Cand the C is STILL in the baseline. If that does not obstruct the runner's opportunity to advance then I don't know how much more would be needed short of contact.
If the slide is legal (I still argue it isn't but that is another day's discussion), then whether the R is already out has no bearing. She does NOT need to slide directly into the bag, per rule she needs to end within arm/legs reach of the bag. In NFHS, look at rule 8.6.14 The Runner is out when she remains on her feet and maliciously crashes into a defensive player.
There is no rule that says anything about malicious contact while in the act of sliding, simply legal/illegal slide. So, even if you COULD somehow come up with a scenario where a runner slides legally and makes illegal contact with the fielder (not sure what that would even look like), I think you would be hard-pressed to impart malicious intent on that action.
I go back to the original question, in this instance, looking at the video I, personally, have obstruction, interference (either by a retired runner, OR through an illegal slide since the runner's buttock or leg were not on the ground at the time of contact with the fielder). Until the SB rule on sliding directly in line to the bag is changed to match baseball, then I do not have illegal contact with the fielder UNLESS you call it an illegal slide. If the slide was legal, then the contact is incidental, play on.
EDIT: And as noted by CrabbyBob above, this whole play followed an illegal pitch so it never even happened in a robot- umpired world.
If the slide is legal (I still argue it isn't but that is another day's discussion), then whether the R is already out has no bearing. She does NOT need to slide directly into the bag, per rule she needs to end within arm/legs reach of the bag. In NFHS, look at rule 8.6.14 The Runner is out when she remains on her feet and maliciously crashes into a defensive player.
There is no rule that says anything about malicious contact while in the act of sliding, simply legal/illegal slide. So, even if you COULD somehow come up with a scenario where a runner slides legally and makes illegal contact with the fielder (not sure what that would even look like), I think you would be hard-pressed to impart malicious intent on that action.
I go back to the original question, in this instance, looking at the video I, personally, have obstruction, interference (either by a retired runner, OR through an illegal slide since the runner's buttock or leg were not on the ground at the time of contact with the fielder). Until the SB rule on sliding directly in line to the bag is changed to match baseball, then I do not have illegal contact with the fielder UNLESS you call it an illegal slide. If the slide was legal, then the contact is incidental, play on.
EDIT: And as noted by CrabbyBob above, this whole play followed an illegal pitch so it never even happened in a robot- umpired world.
