Interference Rule on Slide into Catcher

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Jul 12, 2020
10
3
I probably should have stated this in my original post. I was at this game and I am the father of the pitcher in the video. Thank you AS95SY for your comments on the 1B and her leadership. The 1B came in to replace the catcher. She actually was injured on a similar play where the runner from third veered in from outside the foul line and targeted her legs when she was in the field play preparing to catch the ball. She had to miss several months because of a knee injury she suffered during the play.

As I mentioned earlier, this game was chippy from the start. The offensive team apparently has a reputation for shady happenings before and during a game. I heard this second/third-handed and have no confirmation beyond what I saw happened during this game. FYI, this video was sent to the section governing body who forwarded it to those in charge of officiating. As of now, no further action has been taken by them.

I was sitting behind the HP umpire with a similar view angle as his. The video was from directly behind the plate. From my angle in real-time, it definitely looked like she targeted the catcher to breaking up and prevent double-play. She was not sliding into the plate as some may have suggested but sliding late into the catcher. My opinion is only confirmed by the first part of the video and more so by the zoomed-in video clip. She starts outside the line. Three steps before her slide, her right foot touches the line, her next right foot plant is a good 1-1/2 feet inside the line, going into a slide. The type of side sweeping double leg slide used has only one purpose, take out the legs fielder. Luckily the catcher stepped forward when she did as the runner would have taken both legs out. Also, as others have pointed out, the runner's butt does not hit the ground until after contact. The rollover is the selling point for the runner to deceive the umpire. I would argue that the rollover is an indicator of not sliding to the plate and a slide into the fielder.

The runner never looks at the umpire to see what he called. That would be the natural reaction for most. She gets up, still not looking at the umpire, and proceeds to walk to the dugout. But notice she hesitates for a moment as she walks through the left batter's box as if to hear the umpire call of out or interference that never comes. The double-play that would have ended the inning never occurs.

The game is over and players AND parents have hopefully moved on. My intent of the original post was to see what others thought of this type of play considering rules were changed to provide more protection to the players. Current players have grown up with these rules. Both teams have committed players and are national or statewide rank HS teams, so they should know right from wrong, what is sportsmanlike and not sportsmanlike, so they cannot use inexperience or I didn't know as an excuse for this type of play. The viewpoints posted were interesting, some taking different viewpoints with the same conclusion, some opposing, some using technical legal jargon to justify and not justify the legality of the play and the penalties that should have been imposed. One interesting interpretation I had not thought of was not only the runner at home was out on a force play, but the batter-runner should also be safe at first. It is the runner (closest to play) going from 2nd to third is the one that should be also called out. So thank you all for the posts and probably continued posts.

From a parent, spectator, some time coach, and not a rules expert, this how I thought it should be ruled viewing it in real-time and at that moment:
  1. Runner from third should be ruled out by force out at home.
  2. Interference should have been called on the runner from third preventing the double-play.
  3. Batter-runner going to first should have been called out as a result of the interference. Or, as the previous comment mentions, the runner from 2nd going to third should have also been called out instead of the batter-runner. In either case, two outs would have been recorded and the inning ended.
  4. The runner from third should have been ejected for at the very least unsportsmanlike conduct. The intent was clear, take out the fielder, possibly injuring them. The type of slide used is an indication of this. In this case, a defenseless one who had already turned away. Some have argued she was finishing a play or she did not know was out. Possibly. But, how does taking out a defenseless player justify those arguments?
Finally, my takeaway is that the umpiring crew completely failed in their duties to officiate this game and protect the players. Not just for this one play, but all the other questionable things that happened during this game. But those are for another day.
 
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Jan 24, 2020
70
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" had to assume the catcher's foot was off the plate so she had to get there. " get where, the catchers foot, is that how she scores safely, sliding into catcher's foot, I thought it was the plate. if she thought she could still score, slide would have been to plate. this is where intent comes in, she intended to take catcher out.

and once the catcher records the out, the onus is on offensive player, not the defense, to avoid interfering with the play. breaking up a double play on anything that is not bang bang is not smart base running, is not playing hard, it is against the rules.

not playing hard, playing dirty definitley, even if intent was not to injure, intent was to do exact opposite of what rules call for once a runner is retired, ie interfering. jsut because this was accepted for a long time still does not make it right.

Catcher's plant foot was within inches of the baseline at the time of contact, directly between 3rd base and home plate. Without an umpire signal, how is runner supposed to be sure the out has actually been recorded? This is where you seem to disagree fundamentally with my point, how many times has this player been told to not assume an out has been made, go hard until the umpire calls you out? Had the umpire made an out call, then it becomes dirty, but he didn't and stood there like a statue, that tells me he did not call an out, therefore get to the plate. Hard, not dirty.

@RADcatcher made the point that the catcher could have rendered this discussion moot had she come off the plate in the direction of first rather than third. At second base it is assumed that someone is going to slide hard to break up a DP, so players are told to get out of the way when turning the DP, why is this not the assumption at other bases? There are a lot of things coming together in a the space of a second or two, so let's hang the "dirty" moniker on a teenage girl when she has to make a split second decision? Go hard, but if you hurt somebody a bunch of chatroom jokers are going to dissect the play in every imaginable way, and it will look bad? It sucks that the catcher was hurt, but the responsibility for that does not rest solely on the runners head.
 
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Jan 24, 2020
70
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@echung12 With the added context of what was happening the rest of the game, the intent to injure does seem much more likely. My analysis was from the clip shown taken independently. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who will do whatever it takes to get the W. Sometimes the extra-extra goes beyond sporting and gamesmanship and into dirty.

DD had a CIF game in Hesperia this season, we knew something was up when we showed up and the Home dugout was on the 1B side and lined with plywood, while the Visitor dugout was just chain link. It was sunny and there was a constant wind blowing from RF to the Visitor dugout, that team were experts in kicking up dust between every pitch so it would blow into the 3b Dugout, hell of a home field advantage, pure gamesmanship, not dirty.
 
Jul 12, 2020
10
3
@echung12 With the added context of what was happening the rest of the game, the intent to injure does seem much more likely. My analysis was from the clip shown taken independently. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who will do whatever it takes to get the W. Sometimes the extra-extra goes beyond sporting and gamesmanship and into dirty.

DD had a CIF game in Hesperia this season, we knew something was up when we showed up and the Home dugout was on the 1B side and lined with plywood, while the Visitor dugout was just chain link. It was sunny and there was a constant wind blowing from RF to the Visitor dugout, that team were experts in kicking up dust between every pitch so it would blow into the 3b Dugout, hell of a home field advantage, pure gamesmanship, not dirty.
Know the school and the situation. I witnessed what would be a routine pop fly in the infield behind the SS get blown by the wind over the short left-field fence. Their players know how to play the wind. On another play, a pop foul that should have gone over the fence behind the first base dugout get caught in foul territory just short of coming all the way back in play to first base. Look like a lob wedge into a stiff wind.

BTW - CIF was notified several years ago that the field did not meet CIF dimension specifications. I think it was 170' down the line. They said they did not know and would not schedule playoff games there anymore. I guess they forgot.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
In this picture can see the catchers right foot is being clipped.
This is the foot the catcher HAD on the plate and MOVED up the line toward 3rd.
into where the runner had already started her slide.


Screenshot_2021-06-17-19-29-54-1.png
The catcher could have simply pivoted from original stance
(putting left foot toward first) using a one step throw to first.
Which at this point her right foot would still be on home plate.

👉 Had she used a two step throw toward first (right/left)
she would have completely vacated home plate.

What she did was a swivel
Rotating body exchanging feet...moving right foot up the line toward 3rd.
(btw swivel style is also a two step throwing mechanic)

Picture speaks to a more common sense approach could be used.

Certainly HOPE this thread topic helps other defensive players think about the mechanics being used!!!
 
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radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
***there is no reason for this contact.
***Perhaps both could have prevented it.
!!!!!!! ☝ !!!!!!!!
Right no reason, preventable!
"Perhaps BOTH could have prevented it"
Exactly!!

Who knows if any other rule changes could help???

What I do know right now is

* There is something every defensive player can do and that is Use Better Mechanics!
It is not an arguement,
*Its a Solution for the catcher!
 
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radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
Here it is in a hand basket :)
Everyone can keep debating
Good play Bad play scenario's
That probly will never stop :)
Brings out good view points!
But that is just revolving door discussion.

imo
Best thing is find a solution!

Thinking it through,
Would i, as a defensive player, rely on the other player to always be perfect in there slide approach and perspective of whatever doing the right thing is??
HECK NO !!

So either
The catcher
(or any defensive player)
Can continue to be taken out by questionable slides.
(Which includes where the defensive players are standing and what they are doing.)
Resulting in a few defensive players getting injured. (Btw, even runners get injured in these scenarios.)
And a few players may get ejected.

OR HOW ABOUT

Recognize how to help
With our own participation
To greatly help not getting taken out !!!
 
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Jul 5, 2016
652
63
It's two entirely separate issues. Obviously defensive players should work on positioning to avoid being called for interference and to avoid being taken out either accidentally, or in this case, with intent.

The other problem is one of policing dirty players and, by extension, coaches who tolerate dirty play.
 
May 6, 2015
2,397
113
OK, so when you ar rear ended in a car collision, are you accepting 50% of the blame because you could have moved out of the way, even though you could not see the other car? Trust me, I was sitting on a painted median once, prior to entering left turn lane, someone from right hit my car (softly albeit), even though I was somewhere I should not have been, did not relieve them of responsibility to watch where they were going.

and it is different than a SS and a runner on 2B to 1B double play, SS is facing the retired runner. and also rules are different now, deliberately attempting to break up a double play with no other legitimate purpose (like trying to beat throw) is actually AGAINST the rules. onus is on retired runners not to interfere, not certain why no one wants to accept this, except clinging to old school ways, that ended up with devastating injuries.

and at moment of contact depicted by Rad, catchers foot is actually in front right corner of RHB box (toes appear to be on line, heel say 10 inches inside, and maybe 6 inches from inside front corner). that is inside the baseline by a couple of feet by my calculations (please verify, HS geometry was a long time ago) based on NFHS dimensions.
1624018211696.png
 

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