How much Chirping?

[flash277]

There have been a FEW times where I was legitimately curious about borderline pitches, and usually I'm wondering if it was outside/inside because I can't tell from the side. Did it look good to me? Sure. I'm not asking on a dirt ball. But I'm also not asking on a single pitch that didn't go my way. If I see the same pitch a couple times, I might ask my catcher "was that low?" I'm not passive-aggressively complaining. I'm trying to figure out your zone (and I'm not going to ask you about it because, of course, the implication is that your zone is not the defined zone).

Now a question. Is there a better way to do this? The only reason I'd ask in the moment and not after the inning is half the time I ask my players about a specific pitch in an inning, they've already forgotten.

I don't complain about strike zones (to you... I'll quietly bitch to my AC though!), but if that bad catcher situation arises, how do I get that information from you? I don't expect an umpire to volunteer it, but if I go to talk about the strike zone I'm probably in hot water as it is.

But why would you have to ask where a pitch was?...If it was over the plate, from your view, on the outside corner and the umpire called ball, then the umpire thought it was outside, if it was over the plate but a bit low and the umpire called ball, then he thought it was low, so why would you ask where it was when the umpire's call should tell you where he thought it was?

 

[The Man In Blue]

@CoachJD ... good questions and good conversation!

I have to give you my bias before I say more ... I’ve just been crabby lately.

Asking your catcher is best. Inside/outside I expect a coach to ask periodically because it can be hard to tell from the bench (but not so hard most don’t start to b.... sorry, crabby). High/low? You should be able to see that, so IMO even asking your catcher is just a form of complaining.

I know I have just gotten overly grumpy about this. I don’t mind if you come out and talk to me (Hey blue, I want to help her adjust, where is she missing?). If you haven’t been over there yelling it, I’m happy to talk to you on a generalized basis. You don’t want me coaching your players, so don’t ask me about specific pitches.

 

[flash277]

@CoachJD ... good questions and good conversation!

I have to give you my bias before I say more ... I’ve just been crabby lately.

Asking your catcher is best. Inside/outside I expect a coach to ask periodically because it can be hard to tell from the bench (but not so hard most don’t start to b.... sorry, crabby). High/low? You should be able to see that, so IMO even asking your catcher is just a form of complaining.

I know I have just gotten overly grumpy about this. I don’t mind if you come out and talk to me (Hey blue, I want to help her adjust, where is she missing?). If you haven’t been over there yelling it, I’m happy to talk to you on a generalized basis. You don’t want me coaching your players, so don’t ask me about specific pitches.

Yes, but what are you suppose to say when the coach asks "where is she missing"....."ummm, she's missing the plate, that's what she's missing". Like I said, the coach should know the ball was high/low, inside/outside if you called a ball.

Say @The Man In Blue while you are here, we still haven't heard the story of the game that got you so upset a week or two ago.....

 

[CoachJD]

But why would you have to ask where a pitch was?...If it was over the plate, from your view, on the outside corner and the umpire called ball, then the umpire thought it was outside, if it was over the plate but a bit low and the umpire called ball, then he thought it was low, so why would you ask where it was when the umpire's call should tell you where he thought it was?

Because, as The Man In Blue said, sometimes umps consistently miss in certain directions. Maybe it's a bad day, maybe it's the catcher's fault, or maybe that's just that umpire's zone. If I see a pitch crossing the knees 3 or 4 times and it's called a ball each time, I'm gonna find out if it was in/out or not. If he says low, I tell my pitcher she won't get the low strike. I'm not complaining about it. I'm telling her "That's probably a strike most days; it's not today."

In fact, this just happened to us a couple weeks ago. I can't recall if I typed it here and deleted or if I typed it in another thread, but we had an umpire who was just not giving the outside corner. I don't know if every pitch was a strike or if none of them were. Based on my pitcher's reaction, I think at least some of them probably were. But they weren't that day. So what I told her was to stop throwing it there expecting a call because he was consistently not calling it.

I was talking to the umpire after the game (we won pretty easily, btw), and just brought up the outside pitches. He said something like "I don't give the outside corner. They have to get it over."

So if he ever umps for us again, I know that he wasn't just having a "bad day" and I know it wasn't my catcher doing a crappy job of sticking those pitches. I know he doesn't call them, so now we adjust.

 

[CoachJD]

I know I have just gotten overly grumpy about this. I don’t mind if you come out and talk to me (Hey blue, I want to help her adjust, where is she missing?). If you haven’t been over there yelling it, I’m happy to talk to you on a generalized basis. You don’t want me coaching your players, so don’t ask me about specific pitches.

So I envision a between innings conversation going something like this...

Me: A few of those pitches look pretty close. Are you calling them low?
You: Yes. Your catcher is *insert the thing she's doing to prevent you from seeing*.
Me: So when I get you those glasses you need, I'll make sure they have x-ray vision.

OK, so I won't use that last line, but is that about how I would handle something like that? I should add that I work with enough inexperienced catchers that I can absolutely envision a scenario where my catcher is causing problems.

Btw, fun little story I don't think I've told here before: Earlier this year I was running the scoreboard for a boys basketball game. The ref who happened to be nearest the table called a foul under the basket. He said it was on a certain number a few times. First time I asked who, thinking I misheard/didn't see his fingers right. Second time I let him know we didn't have a number whatever. He said it again, and I was like "that's not one of ours!" So he looks closer, gets the number right, and goes "Wow, I need glasses." My response: "Oh, sure, but if I told you that you'd kick me out of the game."[/USER][/QUOTE]

 

[bmakj]

But why would you have to ask where a pitch was?...If it was over the plate, from your view, on the outside corner and the umpire called ball, then the umpire thought it was outside, if it was over the plate but a bit low and the umpire called ball, then he thought it was low, so why would you ask where it was when the umpire's call should tell you where he thought it was?

what if your pitcher was trying to hit the outside low corner? you may want to know, was it too low, or too outside? to this is legitimate, if asked reasonably.

 

[The Man In Blue]

So I envision a between innings conversation going something like this...

Me: A few of those pitches look pretty close. Are you calling them low?
You: Yes. Your catcher is *insert the thing she's doing to prevent you from seeing*.
Me: So when I get you those glasses you need, I'll make sure they have x-ray vision.

OK, so I won't use that last line, but is that about how I would handle something like that? I should add that I work with enough inexperienced catchers that I can absolutely envision a scenario where my catcher is causing problems.

Btw, fun little story I don't think I've told here before: Earlier this year I was running the scoreboard for a boys basketball game. The ref who happened to be nearest the table called a foul under the basket. He said it was on a certain number a few times. First time I asked who, thinking I misheard/didn't see his fingers right. Second time I let him know we didn't have a number whatever. He said it again, and I was like "that's not one of ours!" So he looks closer, gets the number right, and goes "Wow, I need glasses." My response: "Oh, sure, but if I told you that you'd kick me out of the game."[/USER]

[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't use that first line either. If you want to ask, you need to ask about your pitcher, not my strike zone.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is that coaches (and players) get use to the "low level strike zone" which starts at "could the batter have gotten a bat on it?" and reduces to "was it between the batter's box lines" as it gradually gets to where it always should be: over the plate and in zone. However, as those players get better -- particularly ones who advance quickly at young ages -- they want their advanced skill along with the reduced-skill strike zone.

One of the best pitchers' duels I have ever seen was a 10u game. Both pitchers were dominating their control that day. I called a strike zone that I would use for high school varsity because these girls were killing it, even with a proper zone. Both coaches started to squawk early and I shut them both down fast. I told both of them "Coach, your pitchers are on. Don't insult them by asking for a strike zone reserved for girls who can't get it to the plate." They knew it and they both stopped. I can guarantee they went to the next game (and every game after that) and squawked anyway, because their pitchers are 10u and it is expected.

It is rare that I start with a "big zone" (unless I have seen the teams and know we will need it to keep the game going). I typically will start with a conservative zone and nudge it out if needed. By the second inning we should be pretty dialed in. On the other hand, some umpires always work a big zone.

I might also add, if a pitcher has good movement on the ball, you may as well not bother saying a word because I can almost guarantee you are watching the catcher. I hate coaches that say "How can that be a strike if the catcher ..." I don't watch the catcher, I watch the ball.

Love the basketball story! Many of the guys and gals I work with also do basketball, and every year I hear at least one story about fouls on phantom players.

 

[The Man In Blue]

what if your pitcher was trying to hit the outside low corner? you may want to know, was it too low, or too outside? to this is legitimate, if asked reasonably.

Now this I would consider a legitimate question to be asked in between innings, not on every pitch.

Incorrect: "Where was it!?" "Where are YOU calling it?"
Correct: "Blue, so we can help her adjust, was that low or outside? I couldn't tell from my view." This acknowledges that you don't have the eyes on it that the umpire does BUT shows you are trying to pay attention. I know you can't always tell and I'm happy to clarify.

This brings up an interesting, and controversial, umpiring mechanic. When new umpires start, many umpires will want to announce where it is, either verbally ("Ball, high!" "Ball, outside!") or through a hand signal. We are taught early on NOT to do this. The belief is that it feeds the beast. If I miss it and say where, it gives more ammunition to a grumpy coach.

HOWEVER, there are some "schools of thought" that are experimenting with having umpires announce it, believing it will lessen the conflict in the long run. This goes hand in hand with professional sports. Almost every other sport has some sort of "public declaration" of the call -- basketball, football, soccer. Spurred by the use of instant replay, professional baseball has recognized they lack this and have been in talks about implementing it in some shape or form.

 

[newsoftballdad]

Overheard from a catcher this weekend when asked by her coach where did it miss. She said I don't know it was over the plate! The pitch was called a ball so it missed somewhere!?!

 

[The Man In Blue]

15 feet over the plate ...