Hip/Shoulder Separation

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Aug 20, 2020
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Sorry about the orientation but what are your thoughts in regards to the comments in the below video..... His comments are based off of data generated from K-Vest.




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That's an interesting video. There was a recent discussion in another thread about the Kvest and the various data it shows. The guy talking in the video didn't go into a lot of detail but, to me, it sounds like he's suggesting a couple of different things. One, that hip/shoulder separation (or the vast majority of it) takes place prior to launching the hips/bat. I would have to agree with that, as I've argued here and elsewhere that good hitters adjust to different speeds by getting into a hip/shoulder separated position and then simply maintaining it until it's time to launch. His comments further suggest that any hip action involved in creating the initial hip/shoulder separation is NOT the same hip action that is used to launch the bat. I would agree with that too; in fact, it's one of the main points of this thread.

As for deceleration, I don't really like the word, as I think it mischaracterizes what good hitters do. Deceleration suggests a gradual drop in speed. When I watch the hips of good hitters, I see a very quick start, followed by a nearly immediate slamming on of the brakes. Their hips fire like a piston - quick start, quick stop (usually right when the bat contacts the ball). And the stop is usually followed by the hips moving in reverse, like they slammed into a wall and bounced off. Technically, it probably is a deceleration, it's just a very quick, nearly immediate deceleration.
 
Feb 25, 2020
953
93
I agree with you force must be applied to the handle of the bat. To me the force on the bat is forward though not rearward. Pull the bat down and forward against a leveraged hips.

Forward Even when the bat is here?

Screenshot_20210122-233711.png

Top hand of course makes sense but the bottom hand? Is it just along for the ride?

As pointed out by mr. Bobbyshirer in the past, physics says that torque is best applied 90 degrees to a lever. I think the bottom hand gets pulled that way(which would be left and then rearward through contact from there). I would think it must keep torquing it as this is the portion of the swing where the greatest acceleration occurs. And acceleration requires force(torque).



Compare the above to contact. His left shoulder has moved pretty far to the rear. His right shoulder has moved much less. If it was strictly torso rotation there would be equal movement.

And seeing that his arm is attached to his shoulder I would think some torque was applied in this direction.

Screenshot_20210122-233731.png

Full swing
 
Aug 20, 2020
79
18
It does? News to me. Unlike most of this hitting garbage, there is no ambiguity when it comes to physics terms...

Well I'm sure you're right about that. You could have a gradual deceleration or an immediate deceleration. I guess I just think of the term in the context of driving, e.g., decelerating on the off-ramp (though you could just as easily decelerate when hitting a brick wall - I try not to think about that one while driving). I just never see the word qualified with an adverb when baseball gurus use it, leaving its usage somewhat open to interpretation.
 
Jun 5, 2019
24
3
Forward Even when the bat is here?

View attachment 20797

Top hand of course makes sense but the bottom hand? Is it just along for the ride?

As pointed out by mr. Bobbyshirer in the past, physics says that torque is best applied 90 degrees to a lever. I think the bottom hand gets pulled that way(which would be left and then rearward through contact from there). I would think it must keep torquing it as this is the portion of the swing where the greatest acceleration occurs. And acceleration requires force(torque).



Compare the above to contact. His left shoulder has moved pretty far to the rear. His right shoulder has moved much less. If it was strictly torso rotation there would be equal movement.

And seeing that his arm is attached to his shoulder I would think some torque was applied in this direction.

View attachment 20799

Full swing



I see his hands, both of them, down and forward from where they started in both stills. When you say rearward are you referring to how the bat starts on the right side of his body an finishes on the left toward the opposite dugout in the follow through? I don't understand what is rearward about the bat lag position in the first still.
 
Feb 25, 2020
953
93
I see his hands, both of them, down and forward from where they started in both stills. When you say rearward are you referring to how the bat starts on the right side of his body an finishes on the left toward the opposite dugout in the follow through? I don't understand what is rearward about the bat lag position in the first still.

I just think his bottom hand is pulling 90 degrees to the handle for as long as possible(he has to hit the ball of course). So in that "lag position" it pulls toward the dugout in that instant. As the bat moves the direction the bottom hand pulls moves also.

So here he is almost pulling directly rearward with the bottom hand. Screenshot_20210127-120333.png

Full swing again
 

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
2,926
113
I just think his bottom hand is pulling 90 degrees to the handle for as long as possible(he has to hit the ball of course). So in that "lag position" it pulls toward the dugout in that instant. As the bat moves the direction the bottom hand pulls moves also.

So here he is almost pulling directly rearward with the bottom hand. View attachment 20802

Full swing again


Bonesaw, wouldn't that action be part of the whip "down to" the ball ? There definitely is an act by the bottom hand but the degree is determined by the location of the pitch correct ?

xoXdWDe.gif


k4xI3PF.gif


dxM8tbE.gif
 
Feb 25, 2020
953
93
Bonesaw, wouldn't that action be part of the whip "down to" the ball ? There definitely is an act by the bottom hand but the degree is determined by the location of the pitch correct ?

xoXdWDe.gif


k4xI3PF.gif


dxM8tbE.gif

Yes I think so.

If you watch rendons bottom hand it pulls 90 degrees to the bat from launch(which hapoens to be down and forward!) all the way until his hips are fully extended and he cant pull anymore. AKA release.
 
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Feb 25, 2020
953
93
That's an interesting video. There was a recent discussion in another thread about the Kvest and the various data it shows. The guy talking in the video didn't go into a lot of detail but, to me, it sounds like he's suggesting a couple of different things. One, that hip/shoulder separation (or the vast majority of it) takes place prior to launching the hips/bat. I would have to agree with that, as I've argued here and elsewhere that good hitters adjust to different speeds by getting into a hip/shoulder separated position and then simply maintaining it until it's time to launch. His comments further suggest that any hip action involved in creating the initial hip/shoulder separation is NOT the same hip action that is used to launch the bat. I would agree with that too; in fact, it's one of the main points of this thread.

As for deceleration, I don't really like the word, as I think it mischaracterizes what good hitters do. Deceleration suggests a gradual drop in speed. When I watch the hips of good hitters, I see a very quick start, followed by a nearly immediate slamming on of the brakes. Their hips fire like a piston - quick start, quick stop (usually right when the bat contacts the ball). And the stop is usually followed by the hips moving in reverse, like they slammed into a wall and bounced off. Technically, it probably is a deceleration, it's just a very quick, nearly immediate deceleration.

Sorry if I derailed your thread! That "hips firing like a piston" is the key. And is why they stop rotating. The "piston" thing your seeing is hip extension. When the hips start extending they cant rotate. Because the muscles extending the hip, glutes and hammies are just so powerful. The rotaters are trumped.

This is why the kvest data can be misleading. It shows that the hips stop rotating. But really they have just begun to do their work. It is probly why the whole DECEL theory was spawned. Even though that is a ridiculous idea prima facie. Force must be continuously/increasingly applied.
 

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