Hip/Shoulder Separation and Backside Scrunch

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fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
The concept of Hip/Shoulder separation is one that has always bothered me. But only bothered me in a way that i didn't/don't understand it. There have been a few posts recently within other threads, and thought i would start one specifically for this question.

The twitter post i found on Drivelinebaseball as well as the KVest post. Both show what look to be the hips firing first.

But to be honest i have never really seen a post where the hips fire first all by themselves. It always seems that the back elbow starts coming down at the same time, which to me means that the top fires at the same time as the bottom.

Is this more of an all fire but the top half is more 'scrunching' and pulling the front shoulder up, vs rotational which makes it look like the hips are acting alone like Lee H. Oswald? I don't think that i can find a clip where the rear elbow doesn't align with the hips 'firing'.

My question is, what really happens? My thought is that the topside tries to get a 'stretch' which based on the Kvest graph the topside is moving in reverse, or walking away from the hands. This in turn gets the shoulders started behind the hips and then it seems like everything tries to launch. It seems like even before heel strike that the hips are starting to turn forward. This shows in red going up before the heel strike vertical line.

Secondary question, should the hips start to 'open' as the front foot comes down? If this something that needs to be taught? front foot towards pitcher, starts hips moving, heel strike as top half is still separating backwards, then bang, all forces launch to the pitch?

I have read some stuff on Baseball-fever as well and may post this over there to get comment. I am looking for a description that matches what i see. And as i try to actually fire the hips first, i seem to have too much 'rubber band stretch' to torso and lose alot of power/momentum.

Just thought i would ask to see what thoughts there are out there.

1619897315983.png

 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
I will also share this Bo Bichette clip at the 41 sec mark slow motion and see if anyone sees different than me. He has been called out as an efficient hitter. Which i assume to mean his sequence is good.

 
Jan 6, 2009
6,591
113
Chehalis, Wa
Early on I said initial hip movement created stretch. I have come back to this 23 years later.

I don’t believe in rotation.

If you want to broaden your understanding, I suggest you sign up for Richard Schenck’s Patreon for 10 dollars. You can watch all the Patreons you want for 10 bucks.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
Early on I said initial hip movement created stretch. I have come back to this 23 years later.

I don’t believe in rotation.

If you want to broaden your understanding, I suggest you sign up for Richard Schenck’s Patreon for 10 dollars. You can watch all the Patreons you want for 10 bucks.
From your comment i dont know if you believe in stretch or not. I know you don't believe in rotation, but rotation wasn't my question.

So maybe i should as this another way... Do the hips 'fire' first leaving everything else behind until 'stretched' til the upper half 'snaps' like a rubber band. Asked another way, does the top half 'wait' until pulled from the 'firing' lower half?

I understand you don't want everything moving back then all forward....ABAF. But is all this much ado about just getting the upper half 'started' behind the lower? If the upper starts behind the lower, ie the rear shoulder turned back farther than the rear hip, does that create the 'stretch' everyone talks about? Or is the stretch because the hips 'fire' under a 'loaded' top until the top is 'pulled' forward?

That's why i ask about the rear elbow always seeming to move when the hips do. I am trying to figure out if the top 'waits' to get 'pulled'. It seems more that it is an offset relationship between top and bottom that creates this 'stretch'.
 
Jan 6, 2009
6,591
113
Chehalis, Wa
If you send the barrel backwards at the same time the rear leg turns forward, the pelvis will get turned as the shoulders stay closed.

In just about every throwing and striking action the same position is created. The pelvis and shoulder position is created even in fastpitch pitchers.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
If you send the barrel backwards at the same time the rear leg turns forward, the pelvis will get turned as the shoulders stay closed.

In just about every throwing and striking action the same position is created. The pelvis and shoulder position is created even in fastpitch pitchers.
Still not quite sure what you are saying.

RE: if you send barrel backwards at same time the rear leg turns............this makes it sound like everything 'launches' at the same time.

RE: the pelvis will get turned as the shoulders stay closed............makes it sound like the top is not being launched or no force on the top.

Unless you are trying to comment on 'what type of move' it is that is being launched, which is not my question.

Do the hips fire first, then the top gets pulled? Or do both 'fire' at the same time? Is the stretch a 'delay' in when the bottom v top fires? Or is the stretch a difference in the starting angles of the top and bottom with both firing together?
 
Apr 20, 2018
4,581
113
SoCal
There is an X factor (difference pelvis line and shoulder line) in every good swing. Even guys that say they stay square, don't. And of course there is rotation. Swing by definition is rotational. Where the rotation of the shoulders catches up to the rotation of the the pelvis around contact. Or does the pelvis slow down and throw/ catapult the shoulders around? What makes the the pelvis and shoulders rotate? Muscles and tendons and facia. What is the sequence or firing order of all these muscles? Is the swing top hand dominate or bottom hand dominate? Is the bat whipped or hammered? If you ask great hitters these questions, they would probably give you different answers. Also, the elbow coming down is not rotational. It is more downward.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
There is an X factor (difference pelvis line and shoulder line) in every good swing. Even guys that say they stay square, don't. And of course there is rotation. Swing by definition is rotational. Where the rotation of the shoulders catches up to the rotation of the the pelvis around contact. Or does the pelvis slow down and throw/ catapult the shoulders around? What makes the the pelvis and shoulders rotate? Muscles and tendons and facia. What is the sequence or firing order of all these muscles? Is the swing top hand dominate or bottom hand dominate? Is the bat whipped or hammered? If you ask great hitters these questions, they would probably give you different answers. Also, the elbow coming down is not rotational. It is more downward.
Thank you, what is the answer to the bold above?
 
Last edited:
Jan 6, 2009
6,591
113
Chehalis, Wa
Your confusing yourself with data and the written word. Pick up a bat and start swinging.

The lowerbody and hands launch at the same time. The lowerbody/torso have to overcome the resistance of the bat/arms (weight).
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
Your confusing yourself with data and the written word. Pick up a bat and start swinging.

The lowerbody and hands launch at the same time. The lowerbody/torso have to overcome the resistance of the bat/arms (weight).
Not confusing anything. The question wasn't answered. I have swung the bat, and thru trying to teach my DD i continue to ask these questions. Obviously from a slow pitch swing alot of things are different.

And BTW you just answered the question that the top fires at the same time the lower does, the 'lower body and hands launch at the same time.' Unless that's not what you meant. You seem to be separating the lowerbody/torso as one thing, as well as the bat/arms as a second thing.

Thank you.
 

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