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Jun 8, 2016
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Not looking for absolution. I own what I did, and given same circumstances, I would do it again. As we both have established, you are entitled to your opinion.
I meant absolved from being “involved in the game” since you are claiming you were not.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
OK, trying to remember everything I needed to reply to ... I'll tag @Hillhouse since most of this was his ...

I am not going to comment on the advantages or differences any further. I advised what we were trained and stated I am not an expert beyond that (despite having a check stub showing I paid to be one).

Liability ... I'll admit this is always something I have questioned. It really feels like a boogeyman used to scare officials into doing what the organizations want. That said, I have tried Googling and have found a few litigation happy instances directed at officials. The gist of what the orgs tell us does seem to be true (though I question the frequency): do what you are supposed to do and you have no liability. Do things you know you are not supposed to (or don't do things you are) and you are putting yourself in that potential hot water.

For example ... as you well remember, a few years ago we were instructed to check equipment. Many officials did not like this because we were not provided training on what we were checking for. Sure, screws in helmets and things like that are easy. Bats ... whole different story. However, if I allowed an illegal bat into the game -- and since I was directed to check equipment, I DID allow it either by saying yes or by not doing what I was supposed to do -- I could have some liability when that bat led to an injury. So, guys like me erred on the side of caution. I feel I would have had an adequate defense of "They never trained me what to look for, they just gave this vague list" ... but nonetheless there are many stories here about my bat tossing insanity. I was like Oprah ... You have an illegal bat and you have an illegal bat and you have an illegal bat!

Now, that liability is on the coach. At the plate meeting we ask, "Coach are all your players legally equipped?" (Or, as I have changed mine to, "Is all your equipment legal?") We do not play without a verbal YES. Thank you coach, that is your ball and chain now.

Sorry, getting long-winded ... anyway ... If I knowingly allow you to pitch using rock resin or an illegal substance and your breaking ball breaks too much ... as in bones in the batter ... I am now on the hook because I knew you were doing it and I allowed you to do it.

What was the other thing? Oh yeah, sharing the rosin bag. I recall some mention of this years ago, but I do not recall any actual rule. As somebody mentioned (I'm sorry I forgot who), COVID changed that anyway. I know the home team is not supposed to do things that would give them an advantage* but I cannot think of anything that specifically applies there. I once had a visiting team complain that they wanted the home team to provide them with a heater in their dugout since the home team had one. I said as long as they weren't heating the bats, I didn't care.

*While reading an article on rosin bags, I read that one of the inciting incidents to bring about the use of rosin was a Major League Baseball team that used to mix dish soap into the dirt around the pitcher's mound. Their pitchers knew what dirt they could grab, but the visiting team would get hands of soapy mud.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
OK, trying to remember everything I needed to reply to ... I'll tag @Hillhouse since most of this was his ...

I am not going to comment on the advantages or differences any further. I advised what we were trained and stated I am not an expert beyond that (despite having a check stub showing I paid to be one).

Liability ... I'll admit this is always something I have questioned. It really feels like a boogeyman used to scare officials into doing what the organizations want. That said, I have tried Googling and have found a few litigation happy instances directed at officials. The gist of what the orgs tell us does seem to be true (though I question the frequency): do what you are supposed to do and you have no liability. Do things you know you are not supposed to (or don't do things you are) and you are putting yourself in that potential hot water.

For example ... as you well remember, a few years ago we were instructed to check equipment. Many officials did not like this because we were not provided training on what we were checking for. Sure, screws in helmets and things like that are easy. Bats ... whole different story. However, if I allowed an illegal bat into the game -- and since I was directed to check equipment, I DID allow it either by saying yes or by not doing what I was supposed to do -- I could have some liability when that bat led to an injury. So, guys like me erred on the side of caution. I feel I would have had an adequate defense of "They never trained me what to look for, they just gave this vague list" ... but nonetheless there are many stories here about my bat tossing insanity. I was like Oprah ... You have an illegal bat and you have an illegal bat and you have an illegal bat!

Now, that liability is on the coach. At the plate meeting we ask, "Coach are all your players legally equipped?" (Or, as I have changed mine to, "Is all your equipment legal?") We do not play without a verbal YES. Thank you coach, that is your ball and chain now.

Sorry, getting long-winded ... anyway ... If I knowingly allow you to pitch using rock resin or an illegal substance and your breaking ball breaks too much ... as in bones in the batter ... I am now on the hook because I knew you were doing it and I allowed you to do it.

What was the other thing? Oh yeah, sharing the rosin bag. I recall some mention of this years ago, but I do not recall any actual rule. As somebody mentioned (I'm sorry I forgot who), COVID changed that anyway. I know the home team is not supposed to do things that would give them an advantage* but I cannot think of anything that specifically applies there. I once had a visiting team complain that they wanted the home team to provide them with a heater in their dugout since the home team had one. I said as long as they weren't heating the bats, I didn't care.

*While reading an article on rosin bags, I read that one of the inciting incidents to bring about the use of rosin was a Major League Baseball team that used to mix dish soap into the dirt around the pitcher's mound. Their pitchers knew what dirt they could grab, but the visiting team would get hands of soapy mud.
Wow, I've been to a lot of pre-game meetings at home plate and have NEVER had an umpire ask if everyone's equipment is legal. That's interesting.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Anyway, if all of the other hundreds of pitchers at this tournament are having to struggle gripping the wet ball, why should this pitcher get the advantage (real or perceived) of something not available to the other pitchers who did not pack their illegal gripping agent for the trip? Especially given there is a legal alternative, like the GG towel.
Not that you were looking for my blessing either way but, I was sorta on the fence about this issue until you posted this paragraph. This one lost me to the dark side of Pattar. I was also once a teenage pitcher, and I think I'd have been HUMLIATED if my father came out of the stands in a similar scenario. and I wasn't even playing in a game against my own peers. I was a teenager pitching in a men's competition. Even if he did provide info to help my team and myself. Whether that's fair to you and the situation or not, that's exactly where my brain went when I read your last paragraph. Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake compared to the others. lol
 
May 16, 2016
946
93
Not that you were looking for my blessing either way but, I was sorta on the fence about this issue until you posted this paragraph. This one lost me to the dark side of Pattar. I was also once a teenage pitcher, and I think I'd have been HUMLIATED if my father came out of the stands in a similar scenario. and I wasn't even playing in a game against my own peers. I was a teenager pitching in a men's competition. Even if he did provide info to help my team and myself. Whether that's fair to you and the situation or not, that's exactly where my brain went when I read your last paragraph. Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake compared to the others. lol
You would not have been humiliated, because you would have never known i did anything. This was purely between the coach and myself.
 

LEsoftballdad

DFP Vendor
Jun 29, 2021
2,838
113
NY
We had a parent point out an illegal player at a tournament once. The girl was 18U, and the team we were playing was 16U, but no one on our team knew the girl. It turns out the parent was correct. Our coach asked for a roster check with the TD, and the he tossed the coach and player.
 
Nov 20, 2020
995
93
SW Missouri
I'm not a fan of anyone getting involved with the game that's not part of either team. Whether it be chirping the umpires or pointing things out to coaches/players (short of noticing an injured player or ball on the field when no one else notices). Once the game starts, everyone else exists outside of the fence (and field of play) and the game exists on the inside. Cheer, boo, watch, eat concession food....enjoy the game (as much as you can) and move on.

It is the coaches, players, and umpires responsibility to notice and bring up things they feel are wrong or illegal. A 3-coach system should have the ability to notice and call out the bulk of things mentioned in this thread. Especially at the older ages where girls are able to manage themselves in the dugout.

In my opinion, once warmup starts the parents shouldn't be involved in the "game" until the game is over. And yes, I have watched DD play games against teams where cheating was evident. In some cases, the girls picked it up and made mention to the coach so he could address it.

What's even more irritating, are parents who think a player is cheating when they're actually operating within the rule set and go to coach or umpire to say something. And also lack of awareness to wait until mid-inning, so everyone now has to wait on them and wonder what the heck is going on.

Just my opinion. "You do you" as they say.

Oh......and something something GG towel.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
You would not have been humiliated, because you would have never known i did anything. This was purely between the coach and myself.
The silent issue in all of this is hoping the coach doesn't change his tune about your DD. There's a chance this coach may reward her for having a dad get involved, and there's another chance that he will alter his relationship with her knowing that her dad isn't above inserting himself into situations. I say all of this with "could be" and "maybe" involved, cause I don't know the coach, the team, or anything about anyone involved.

All I can tell you is, right or wrong, good and sometimes bad, my position and interactions with parents are sometimes altered when the parent inserts themselves into our pitching lesson somehow. Sometimes it's a positive thing, sometimes not. But the dichotomy changes. You might think that's wrong and I'm a jerk for saying it out loud but, I bet every private coach both hitting and pitching have different relationships with the parents who say NOTHING during lessons vs. the ones who interject things.

Maybe I'm way way off. Maybe you and the coach have been BFF's since 5th grade. I don't know. All I'm saying is, it's possible.

At the end of the day what's done is done. Even if you changed your mind about what you had done and realized it was a mistake, there's nothing you can do about it. Personally, I'm glad you have not changed your mind or your tune about it because there's very little worse than believing we let our kids down somehow. I believe in your heart you felt like you did the right thing and you might not hesitate to do it again. I do hope you pause and consider all the things other people have said before you do, just in case.

This kinda reminds me of the current Bud Light controversy. That VP really thought this was the right decision and believed in her heart this was the right path. 5 days of firestorm later and $4+BILLION in losses say another story from the public backlash. But, she's stayed firm that this was the right call for the company. Everyone has to decide for themselves if it's right or wrong.
 

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