Fouts pitching out of her glove.

[wheresmycar]

If the coach was yelling mid-stride then the batter would be sitting on fastball and adjusting to change.

LOL. It's too small a community to be naming names...

DD used a circle change grip, probably the easiest to pick. The call came during the back swing from 3rd base coach, so it had to be the grip. It was a short 3 word phrase, that kind of sounded like coaching, but really didn't mean anything on it's own... It didn't just happen... they obviously practiced this.

 

[uncdrew]

LOL. It's too small a community to be naming names...

DD used a circle change grip, probably the easiest to pick. The call came during the back swing from 3rd base coach, so it had to be the grip. It was a short 3 word phrase, that kind of sounded like coaching, but really didn't mean anything on it's own... It didn't just happen... they obviously practiced this.

Gotcha, thanks. Like I said, I'll keep my eyes open and happy to report back when I notice it happening against us.

 

[mmeece]

I can say with certainty that if you tried pitch picking in baseball, pre-90s, the next batter would get drilled in the ribs or have a little chin music played. That would end it real quick.

We did it all the time, but just a little more subtle back then. Called out their number for one pitch, name for another. Or, first name/last name. There's always a way

 

[LEsoftballdad]

I think there's a difference between tipping pitches and stealing signs. If you're tipping pitches, shame on you. If you're stealing signs, you're batter is getting drilled. If Rad were here, she'd tell all of our daughters to be better hitters, not steal signs.

We had a tournament a number of years ago where a parent on our team figured the signs and started yelling "Stay back" on every change. When the other team found out, their parents were enraged and nearly started a fight. The offending parent was asked to leave to premises for unsportsmanlike conduct. Needless to say, he never did it again.

 

[Hillhouse]

Basically I'm saying I agree with you. There are things that occur before the pitcher goes into her motion that can be exploited, and are exploited. At all ages. I'm still stuck on the "coach sees the backswing and relays it to the hitter who while in the zone adjusts her swing successfully". That I'm not seeing at all, and am a bit skeptical about.

Ok, now I understand your issue. I agree with you. In MOST cases, a coach isn't going to see the pitch in the backswing. You're right. It's moving too fast. But I think you're missing a few key points:

1. Yelling something during the backswing doesn't mean that's where the pick occurred. Most likely the pick occurred long before that but, as I said earlier, timing is the key. You have to say this to the hitter when the pitcher doesn't have a chance to alter things. The coach could've seen the grip, amount of hand on the ball, etc. etc. from the pitcher who isn't concealing it from the coach. But the relay has to happen both early enough for the hitter, but not so early the pitcher can adjust. Yes, this does take practice. And there are some people who flat out say, don't say anything to me. They don't want to rely on someone in the dugout yelling something that will get in their head. Those people exist for sure. Although most will say, "Ok let me know when the change is coming". So they don't hold that rule to every thing. lol.

2. Part of my overall point was, it's a damn shame this isn't practiced by your team now. By your DD's hitting coach. This goes back to my comment that there's a huge difference between teaching some a good swing and teaching them to hit the ball. Night after night, next to me in cages at facilities I see coaches doing tee work, then soft toss with their students, this is on top of doing all kinds of drills that frankly I don't understand. Yet none of them discuss the intricacies of hitting riseball. The popularity of former baseball players becoming hitting coaches for both softball and baseball is on the rise because "the swing is the same". Ok, but hitting the ball in the games are very different. And as I also said, as a PC, I'm not complaining. Let them teach that. I know of several former men's FP players that teach picking pitchers in a variety of ways.

3. It can't be discounted or ignored that many many many times the catcher can be the one getting picked. Not necessarily the pitcher. Plus since 99% of teams have coaches calling pitches, maybe that code was broken. The point is, you never know where they're getting it unless it's obvious. But don't automatically assume it's the 3rd base coach.

Someone made a reference a while ago about whether a team should switch sides in the dugouts based on a righty or lefty pitcher. I can give you plenty of times my own team have changed dugouts in tournaments, when we'd have back to back games on the same field. This is usually done during a tournament when we're "waiting" for the next opponent to come to the field (maybe their game ran late?) But if we knew we're facing a lefty in that game, you'd bet your a$$ we'd be changing sides.

 

[Hillhouse]

I think there's a difference between tipping pitches and stealing signs. If you're tipping pitches, shame on you. If you're stealing signs, you're batter is getting drilled. If Rad were here, she'd tell all of our daughters to be better hitters, not steal signs.

We had a tournament a number of years ago where a parent on our team figured the signs and started yelling "Stay back" on every change. When the other team found out, their parents were enraged and nearly started a fight. The offending parent was asked to leave to premises for unsportsmanlike conduct. Needless to say, he never did it again.

That's really interesting. How is it known that the parent stole the signs? Would it make a difference if the parent was getting it straight from the pitcher?

I can sort of understand the thought on sign stealing. Sorta. But, I keep going back to the fact: if a team is so stupid to not conceal their signs, and things are obvious, then who's fault is it really? If there's a runner on 2nd base and the catch is still putting only 1 number down, not trying to conceal the actual pitch with multiple fingers... I'd ask who's fault would it be if the runner on 2nd was able to see it. Now, I think there's a right way to do it. We on 2nd, for example, would stand straight up if we saw a rise being called, and then would squat down like a sprinter for a dropball. So if you were paying attention you might see the difference but it's not overt. The catcher should notice!!! Then we have to change the signs.

I should probably say, I'm not suggesting these tactics for rec ball or anything of the sort!! But, at an age where schools are watching for recruiting, they're watching to see how much gave savvy you have, how hard you work to win, and someone who can help others to learn the "game within the game" you'd better believe these things will matter.

 

[Hillhouse]

Ok, now I understand your issue. I agree with you. In MOST cases, a coach isn't going to see the pitch in the backswing. You're right. It's moving too fast. But I think you're missing a few key points:

1. Yelling something during the backswing doesn't mean that's where the pick occurred. Most likely the pick occurred long before that but, as I said earlier, timing is the key. You have to say this to the hitter when the pitcher doesn't have a chance to alter things. The coach could've seen the grip, amount of hand on the ball, etc. etc. from the pitcher who isn't concealing it from the coach. But the relay has to happen both early enough for the hitter, but not so early the pitcher can adjust. Yes, this does take practice. And there are some people who flat out say, don't say anything to me. They don't want to rely on someone in the dugout yelling something that will get in their head. Those people exist for sure. Although most will say, "Ok let me know when the change is coming". So they don't hold that rule to every thing. lol.

2. Part of my overall point was, it's a damn shame this isn't practiced by your team now. By your DD's hitting coach. This goes back to my comment that there's a huge difference between teaching some a good swing and teaching them to hit the ball. Night after night, next to me in cages at facilities I see coaches doing tee work, then soft toss with their students, this is on top of doing all kinds of drills that frankly I don't understand. Yet none of them discuss the intricacies of hitting riseball. The popularity of former baseball players becoming hitting coaches for both softball and baseball is on the rise because "the swing is the same". Ok, but hitting the ball in the games are very different. And as I also said, as a PC, I'm not complaining. Let them teach that. I know of several former men's FP players that teach picking pitchers in a variety of ways.

3. It can't be discounted or ignored that many many many times the catcher can be the one getting picked. Not necessarily the pitcher. Plus since 99% of teams have coaches calling pitches, maybe that code was broken. The point is, you never know where they're getting it unless it's obvious. But don't automatically assume it's the 3rd base coach.

Someone made a reference a while ago about whether a team should switch sides in the dugouts based on a righty or lefty pitcher. I can give you plenty of times my own team have changed dugouts in tournaments, when we'd have back to back games on the same field. This is usually done during a tournament when we're "waiting" for the next opponent to come to the field (maybe their game ran late?) But if we knew we're facing a lefty in that game, you'd bet your a$$ we'd be changing sides.

it should also be said that, #1. you never admit that you have someone picked. Obviously they'll figure it out but, like being a member of the mob, you're supposed to deny it. #2. when the coach relay's what they see to the hitter is the key because if you're yelling it at the wrong time, the pitcher will (or should) automatically alter how she does things to break that.

 

[uncdrew]

Ok, now I understand your issue. I agree with you. In MOST cases, a coach isn't going to see the pitch in the backswing. You're right. It's moving too fast. But I think you're missing a few key points:

1. Yelling something during the backswing doesn't mean that's where the pick occurred. Most likely the pick occurred long before that but, as I said earlier, timing is the key. You have to say this to the hitter when the pitcher doesn't have a chance to alter things. The coach could've seen the grip, amount of hand on the ball, etc. etc. from the pitcher who isn't concealing it from the coach. But the relay has to happen both early enough for the hitter, but not so early the pitcher can adjust. Yes, this does take practice. And there are some people who flat out say, don't say anything to me. They don't want to rely on someone in the dugout yelling something that will get in their head. Those people exist for sure. Although most will say, "Ok let me know when the change is coming". So they don't hold that rule to every thing. lol.

2. Part of my overall point was, it's a damn shame this isn't practiced by your team now. By your DD's hitting coach. This goes back to my comment that there's a huge difference between teaching some a good swing and teaching them to hit the ball. Night after night, next to me in cages at facilities I see coaches doing tee work, then soft toss with their students, this is on top of doing all kinds of drills that frankly I don't understand. Yet none of them discuss the intricacies of hitting riseball. The popularity of former baseball players becoming hitting coaches for both softball and baseball is on the rise because "the swing is the same". Ok, but hitting the ball in the games are very different. And as I also said, as a PC, I'm not complaining. Let them teach that. I know of several former men's FP players that teach picking pitchers in a variety of ways.

3. It can't be discounted or ignored that many many many times the catcher can be the one getting picked. Not necessarily the pitcher. Plus since 99% of teams have coaches calling pitches, maybe that code was broken. The point is, you never know where they're getting it unless it's obvious. But don't automatically assume it's the 3rd base coach.

Someone made a reference a while ago about whether a team should switch sides in the dugouts based on a righty or lefty pitcher. I can give you plenty of times my own team have changed dugouts in tournaments, when we'd have back to back games on the same field. This is usually done during a tournament when we're "waiting" for the next opponent to come to the field (maybe their game ran late?) But if we knew we're facing a lefty in that game, you'd bet your a$$ we'd be changing sides.

Good points. Some games as a dad I listen to the other team call pitches. "4-1-3" and whatever. And if in the first inning I hear one twice, I'll pay attention to what that pitch was. Then see if they call it again that game. Does me knowing "4-1-3" seemed to be a fastball help anyone? Not really, and I don't tell anyone. But perhaps if it was a change and we see that team again Sunday I'll tell the coach.

Yes, DD's hitting coach does talk about reading a pitcher some. And on our long drives to tournaments I talk about it probably too much. I do wish the girls focused a bit more on trying to learn the pitcher's tells and trying to find an advantage. I'm sure they'll get there, hopefully soon.

As a parent, we're paying about $2 per minute for lessons. And we hate when any of those minutes are spent on talking. Now that usually means talking about non-softball things, or someone else talking to the instructor during our time. So yes, most parents want to see "action" and "doing something" during a lesson, and downplay any strategy or mental stuff. Ours spends some time on it, and we appreciate it. So far it's been more about pitch counts and what to expect on certain counts, and how with no strikes you look for a certain pitch in a certain zone more than you might with 2 strikes. Stuff like that.

... and, I had a thread a few weeks ago where I asked about hitting riseballs and we worked on that in our next hitting lesson. I told the instructor a few days before our lesson we wanted to work on that and he had our 30 minute lesson be all about it. Most of the girls he teaches don't see rise balls, so I can understand him not teaching it to everyone. I think it was great that we asked for that specific instruction and he prepared and taught it to us. Perhaps more people need to ask for specific help, as I too see people just going through the motions in hitting lessons.

 

[Vertigo]

Dd had her CU picked only once in college so far, and it was because she throws a knuckle change. The batters, if they looked closely enough, could see her knuckle during her wind up as she has long fingers and it rests high on the ball. I guess they could see it on the upward motion of her windup.

Sadly for them, they didn’t realize dd knew how to throw her CU with different grips - and one is a FB grip. Once she figured out they knew the knuckle change was coming, she switched to the other CU. Made them look silly the rest of the game.

She prefers her knuckle change though as it is a little slower and actually easier for her to command.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

That's really interesting. How is it known that the parent stole the signs? Would it make a difference if the parent was getting it straight from the pitcher?

He was sitting behind home plate and shouting "STAY BACK" on every change up, yet he was quiet as a church mouse on every other pitch.

I don't have an issue with a player on 2nd revealing inside/outside on a pitch to the batter. You just have to be prepared for the consequences if you get caught. What I have an issue with is coaches or fans stealing signs and using technology, AKA the Astros or NY Giants, to gain an unfair advantage.