For Umpires- Does how the catcher set up and/or physically catch the ball influence your ball and strike call?

[kennykozman!!]

There has been a great discussion on framing and how it related to getting more strikes called.

My questions to everyone but specifically umpires is:

1. If the catcher grabs a low pitch palms up have you been trained to call this a ball? If they frame by turning their wrist and get the glove on top are you more likely to call a strike? Or does it have no bearing on your call.

2. When the catcher stands up out of the crouch early on any pitch and possible blocks you view? Does this influence your calls?

3. In younger games if the catcher is set up too far behind the dish and balls close the knees are hitting the dirt before the catch? Any influence here or are you calling strikes with pitches in the dirt?

4. The catcher sets up outside in the river and the pitcher sticks the glove - are you influenced and call it a strike even though its off the plate?

5. Finally the marginal pitch dropped by the catcher. Does the drop have influence?

Many items NOT in the rulebook here. My mentors have always stressed staying out of trouble and that includes calling marginal low palm up pitches balls, any pitch in the dirt a ball, most pitches that a catcher comes out of the crouch a ball, giving pitches off the plate when the catchers glove does not move and finally calling dropped pitches balls with the exception of right down the middle.

This is an honest real conversation and part of the game.

Few coaches argue a called ball in the dirt, a dropped pitch or a pitch right to the glove. End an inning with a strike call in the dirt and see where that gets you.

Any words of wisdom or other catcher's actions that may influence your zone??

 

[CoachJD]

NOT an umpire, but I have a few thoughts (of course I do):

1. I think any questions that specifically ask umpires about framing issues are inherently flawed. The whole idea of framing is to subconsciously affect the call. No umpire worth a damn would say he lets how the catcher catches the ball affect his call, but especially at very high levels, everything is happening so fast and decisions are made so quickly and evidence tells us that even the very best umpires in the world are influenced slightly. It stands to reason that all umpires are to some extent. I think all we can ask is that umpires do their best to not let something like the example in #1 affect their call, though it probably does at times.

2. This is different. A catcher literally blocking the view probably does affect calls. I know I've gotten on some of my catchers from time to time when they do this.

3. I wouldn't call something a ball in the dirt unless it hits the ground in front of the plate. It's quite possible for a ball to be a strike and hit the dirt a foot or so behind home plate. My question is how can a coach not tell his catcher to move up to prevent so many chances for wild pitches, dropped third, etc.

4. No thoughts on this one. Curious to see responses.

5. How much movement is there from the catcher? If the pitcher hits the spot and the ball pops out, my guess is that doesn't affect the call much. If the catcher has to move (or is inexperienced/not good and just moves too much), I bet that extra movement + the drop affects the call. Now if we're talking the catcher completely missing a ball or it deflecting behind her, that's different, because I'm sure there's quite a bit of distraction when the umpire is getting pelted by catchable balls.

I feel like your mentors are wrong on, well, almost every single one of those, and in almost every case it's going to lead to more arguments, not fewer.

 

[radness]

There has been a great discussion on framing and how it related to getting more strikes called.

My questions to everyone but specifically umpires is:

1. If the catcher grabs a low pitch palms up have you been trained to call this a ball? If they frame by turning their wrist and get the glove on top are you more likely to call a strike? Or does it have no bearing on your call.

2. When the catcher stands up out of the crouch early on any pitch and possible blocks you view? Does this influence your calls?

3. In younger games if the catcher is set up too far behind the dish and balls close the knees are hitting the dirt before the catch? Any influence here or are you calling strikes with pitches in the dirt?

4. The catcher sets up outside in the river and the pitcher sticks the glove - are you influenced and call it a strike even though its off the plate?

5. Finally the marginal pitch dropped by the catcher. Does the drop have influence?

Many items NOT in the rulebook here. My mentors have always stressed staying out of trouble and that includes calling marginal low palm up pitches balls, any pitch in the dirt a ball, most pitches that a catcher comes out of the crouch a ball, giving pitches off the plate when the catchers glove does not move and finally calling dropped pitches balls with the exception of right down the middle.

This is an honest real conversation and part of the game.

Few coaches argue a called ball in the dirt, a dropped pitch or a pitch right to the glove. End an inning with a strike call in the dirt and see where that gets you.

Any words of wisdom or other catcher's actions that may influence your zone??

Good list!

Responses to question #1
Could be different type of pitches the catcher is receiving~

1. a pitch that is a low strike, not beyond borderline. Like a direct hard thrown fastball.
or
2. a pitch that is low of the strike zone to try and get a strike
A change-up falling down short of the catcher.

1. A low hard straight pitch could be going directly into a properly positioned pocket of glove facing the pitcher
versus
2. A pitch like a change up or drop that is going to fall down to the dirt before the catcher. As though it would not reach the catcher.
Of which can be cut off turning glove around. Pocket of glove would still be facing pitcher! And can be framed up with wrist if chose to.
Because it is going to hit the dirt we would want to turn our glove to get around/behind
(glove turns top to the dirt)
we could possibly catch it and use the wrist to frame up.
or dirt pitch, To block or field dirt pitch.


Very important difference
****** Glove turns around facing to the pitcher is different than a basket catch of a pop-up!
(Palm-up) would be like a basket catch and yes they're could be times that a floater changeup might come in were doing palm up could happen also but not as often more rare. Especially cutting off an inside pitch glove side hand of the catcher

 

[radness]

NOT an umpire, but I have a few thoughts (of course I do):

1. I think any questions that specifically ask umpires about framing issues are inherently flawed. The whole idea of framing is to subconsciously affect the call. No umpire worth a damn would say he lets how the catcher catches the ball affect his call, but especially at very high levels, everything is happening so fast and decisions are made so quickly and evidence tells us that even the very best umpires in the world are influenced slightly. It stands to reason that all umpires are to some extent. I think all we can ask is that umpires do their best to not let something like the example in #1 affect their call, though it probably does at times.

1.
Would not say the question is flawed. Think it is really a point to be acknowledged~ That people / umpires do get influenced.

Actually the umpires that want to say they are not affected by the catcher are probably flawed in their answer because for the most part humans are influenced by things/mechanics.
As you make a point in your comments to say there would be at least slight influence.. However I know of umpires who have openly commented to be affected by catching performance.


___________________

I feel like your mentors are wrong on, well, almost every single one of those, and in almost every case it's going to lead to more arguments, not fewer.

This comment is in line with the inconsistency of the performance of umpires. Because they're certainly are umpires who would not agree with each other.

 

[Mike Hurd]

I can't honestly say I have or have not been influenced by framing. I hope I have not. My training teaches me to call the pitch based on where it is when it crosses the front of the plate, not where the catcher catches or attempts to frame the pitch.

 

[marriard]

There has been a great discussion on framing and how it related to getting more strikes called.

My questions to everyone but specifically umpires is:

1. If the catcher grabs a low pitch palms up have you been trained to call this a ball? If they frame by turning their wrist and get the glove on top are you more likely to call a strike? Or does it have no bearing on your call.

This answer goes for questions 3, 4 and 5 as well.

Not in current training. Call is decided as the ball crosses the plate. Catchers doing non-strike catching things shouldn't change the call - but doing these things doesn't make life any easier for the umpire.

That said, umpire are human and catchers that are quiet, catch the ball well and provide the umpire the best view of the zone will help the umpire make their decision on strike/ball. Of course I am much happier if the catcher is making my job easier. Does that equate to more strikes? Probably a few close calls if you have an good umpire - likely a lot more for old school/untrained umpires.

Instead of thinking about the catcher "getting balls called as strikes" - think of it as "the catcher making sure that pitches that are strikes are called as strikes"

--> If I do give a close strike that was in any way influenced by the catcher, I am 100% NOT being influenced consciously. <--

Many, many years ago, there was old school umpire training that was 'if it was caught like a strike, call it a strike' - this is NOT taught any more. That doesn't mean these umpires are not out there. That includes umpires who have NOT received training.

2. When the catcher stands up out of the crouch early on any pitch and possible blocks you view? Does this influence your calls?

influence is not the right word. If you are blocking the umpire, they can't call the close strikes. These will be called balls.
It is on the umpire to move and position to avoid as best they can, but if you can't see the pitch, the close ones are not going to be strikes. Can't see it to call it

Many items NOT in the rulebook here. My mentors have always stressed staying out of trouble and that includes calling marginal low palm up pitches balls, any pitch in the dirt a ball, most pitches that a catcher comes out of the crouch a ball, giving pitches off the plate when the catchers glove does not move and finally calling dropped pitches balls with the exception of right down the middle.

Let me guess... really old guys who haven't either haven't had recent training or ignore recent training but are calling on 'years of experience doing it this way'. They say things like "I don't agree with how they teach it today' or "I have always done it this way and it has been successful for me' or "they say to do this, but in practice..." and so on.

It isn't current practice and while I am huge on 'not getting into trouble' this is now considered 'not doing your job' and 'making stuff up'. If it crosses the plate, call the strike. I know locally here in Florida, if you want to progress to the higher levels, you better be using the most recent training and they have been quietly retiring the older umpires who refuse to change.

Few coaches argue a called ball in the dirt, a dropped pitch or a pitch right to the glove. End an inning with a strike call in the dirt and see where that gets you.

If it is a strike, you call a strike. At most levels if it hits the dirt it is probably a ball but not always depending (catcher way back, slow pitcher, etc)

Any words of wisdom or other catcher's actions that may influence your zone??

Yes....though not for 'influencing my zone' - I am doing everything possible to call the pitch without taking into consideration ANYTHING but where (and if) the ball crosses the plate. This is more how to be a better catcher to make sure when your pitcher throws a strike, it gets called that way.

If the pitch is going to be a strike, you will be able to catch it by setting up right behind the plate. And your arms are long enough to catch a ball 6-10 balls off the plate so there is ZERO reason to set up out there and NOTHING you will do will make it a strike.

• There is NO reason to set up 2 feet outside and ever expect a strike. All you are doing is exposing the umpire to getting hit by a pitch that misses the spot. If the pitch is going to be a ball, you will be able to catch it by setting up right behind the plate. Had a JUCO catcher set up in the opposite batters box with a ~70mph wild pitcher on the mound. When there is NOTHING between me and that pitcher, that was not comfortable.
• There is NO reason to set up in the river and block the umpire. You can easily catch an inside pitch.
• Quieter is better. Less movement is best. Consistent is better.
• If it is clearly a ball, don't try and 'make it a strike'
• If the coach asks where it was, you should answer not the umpire - and it was clearly a ball, say just say so - "It was outside" (making friends with the umpire)
• If the coach asks where it was and you disagree with the call, say "umpire said it was outside" (this tells me you disagreed with the call in the best way). Saying "you don't know where it missed" is not what you should say even if it is what you want to say.

 

[marriard]

I will add one more thing.

You are also taught not to call ball/strike verbally until the ball hits the catcher's glove. This makes sense because the batter can always swing/do something/gets hit, etc, etc... And you look an idiot if you say 'strike' right as the batter hits the ball.

However I think this timing does make the non-umpires over value what the catcher is doing.

 

[CoachJD]

1.
Would not say the question is flawed. Think it is really a point to be acknowledged~ That people / umpires do get influenced.

Actually the umpires that want to say they are not affected by the catcher are probably flawed in their answer because for the most part humans are influenced by things/mechanics.
As you make a point in your comments to say there would be at least slight influence.. However I know of umpires who have openly commented to be affected by catching performance.

The reason I think the question is flawed is that I think any umpire worth a damn would say they do not intentionally make calls based on what the catcher does, and the more honest ones would probably have to admit that they might be influenced without realizing it (and at higher levels where there is video to review, they can study and see what kinds of pitches they might be more susceptible to being influenced by).

I think some types of catcher performance is excusable. Mostly catchers who move so much they're distracting/blocking the umpire's view. But a strike popping out of the glove being called a ball? That person shouldn't be calling a game because they're out there to punish people. That's not their job.

 

[MoJo]

The reason I think the question is flawed is that I think any umpire worth a damn would say they do not intentionally make calls based on what the catcher does, and the more honest ones would probably have to admit that they might be influenced without realizing it (and at higher levels where there is video to review, they can study and see what kinds of pitches they might be more susceptible to being influenced by).

I think some types of catcher performance is excusable. Mostly catchers who move so much they're distracting/blocking the umpire's view. But a strike popping out of the glove being called a ball? That person shouldn't be calling a game because they're out there to punish people. That's not their job.

I have seen it in writing here (DFP) and other forums that almost Every Ump admits that the catcher influences strike/ball calls.

Even saying this sentence ... "Catcher doesn't make it a strike/ball but when they do (this) they aren't getting the strike".

Crazy.

 

[MoJo]

I can't honestly say I have or have not been influenced by framing. I hope I have not. My training teaches me to call the pitch based on where it is when it crosses the front of the plate, not where the catcher catches or attempts to frame the pitch.

The strike zone is 3 dimensional. sheeesh