Drop/Rise Posture

[jfitch12]

For those with students or kids who can spin it up and down, what do you think about actively encouraging posture changes on the drop and rise? I feel like the step-right, throw-left approach (and vice-versa) for the horizontal moving pitches gets a bad rap, especially on this forum. But what about a little forward tilt on the drop and backward tilt on the rise? Is it essential? OK either way (ie, just do what works)? Or should any sort of variation be discouraged, on the theory that mechanics should stay as constant as possible from pitch to pitch?

It seems to help my kid, but it also makes for more inconsistency.


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[El Oso]

For those with students or kids who can spin it up and down, what do you think about actively encouraging posture changes on the drop and rise? I feel like the step-right, throw-left approach (and vice-versa) for the horizontal moving pitches gets a bad rap, especially on this forum. But what about a little forward tilt on the drop and backward tilt on the rise? Is it essential? OK either way (ie, just do what works)? Or should any sort of variation be discouraged, on the theory that mechanics should stay as constant as possible from pitch to pitch?

It seems to help my kid, but it also makes for more inconsistency.


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Prediction -- You're going to hear opinions that favor each way. Some say keep everything the same, others say adjust posture accordingly. All of it will be anecdotal for sure, so IMO you do what works best for that particular pitcher.

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

The up/down trajectory of the ball has everything to do with posture (i.e. angle of the body in relation to the ground). Trying to change the release point in order to aim high/low gets a lot of pitchers in trouble. The release point should be consistent. The body angle changes.
Posture has nothing to do with spin, of course - but to throw a high rise ball, yes. Her posture should tilt back a little. If you want to throw a low rise, you might have the same posture as your normal drop.
ETA: A lot of players just intuit the body angle. How does your DD adjust ball height now?

 

[radness]

For those with students or kids who can spin it up and down, what do you think about actively encouraging posture changes on the drop and rise? I feel like the step-right, throw-left approach (and vice-versa) for the horizontal moving pitches gets a bad rap, especially on this forum. But what about a little forward tilt on the drop and backward tilt on the rise? Is it essential? OK either way (ie, just do what works)? Or should any sort of variation be discouraged, on the theory that mechanics should stay as constant as possible from pitch to pitch?

It seems to help my kid, but it also makes for more inconsistency.


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Just something to consider,
Torso posture change is one of the easiest things to see as a hitter.
Then looking at arm and release.

 

[jfitch12]

ETA: A lot of players just intuit the body angle. How does your DD adjust ball height now?

She does “intuit” height. She would say that that she looks at the target and throws it there. That simple.

I am not sure that posture only affects height, however. What I have seen is that my kid gets better spin and break by trying to change the angle of her pelvis. She is a rise ball pitcher with a very mediocre drop, but that drop is much better when she tries to “level her pelvis” or even tip the pelvis down. Conversely if her rise is “flat,” she can improve the “lift” on the pitch by angling herself backwards, regardless of whether she is throwing a low rise or a high rise.

My working theory is that changing the angle buys the arm time to unravel. So a forward lean allows you to release a millisecond later and therefore pronate more, which makes it more likely to get the hand right behind the ball. In contrast, a backward lean requires a slightly earlier release and therefore allows the pitcher to maintain more external rotation through release, keeping the fingers inside/under the ball.

But I really have no idea, and my DD isn’t sure either. Point also taken that posture changes may be obvious to the hitter. You can definitely see them from the stands.


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[ArmWhip]

So a forward lean allows you to release a millisecond later and therefore pronate more, which makes it more likely to get the hand right behind the ball. In contrast, a backward lean requires a slightly earlier release and therefore allows the pitcher to maintain more external rotation through release, keeping the fingers inside/under the ball.

This is where I get lost, an earlier or later release, in comparison to what? The release area is at or near the bottom of the ball circle, a late release and the ball is on a more upward angle, an early release means the ball is still going down and is not at the bottom of the circle. Leaning forward or backward doesn't change the ball circle so why would it affect the release?

 

[jfitch12]

This is where I get lost, an earlier or later release, in comparison to what? The release area is at or near the bottom of the ball circle, a late release and the ball is on a more upward angle, an early release means the ball is still going down and is not at the bottom of the circle. Leaning forward or backward doesn't change the ball circle so why would it affect the release?

Try this: Stand straight with your throwing arm dangling by your side. (For me it naturally sits pretty close to the back hip where a ball normally would be released with brush.) Now tilt your front (non-throwing side) hip down while your arm remains limp; then tilt it up. Relative to your back hip the throwing arm will be in front of the back hip when you tilt down and behind the back hip when you tilt up.

If pitches are released at 6:00 (the point in space where your arm is naturally if you let it dangle), then downward tilt produces a later release point, whereas upward tilt produces an earlier one, relative to the back hip. And if the arm always unravels in the same way relative to the back hip, then it should be easier to maintain palm up on the earlier (backward tilted) release and easier to get the hand turned over on the later (forward tilted) release.

Anyway that was my thought. It probably is not right, and it may be that I am just chasing butterflies. Except for the reason identified by gertrude (aiming high/low), does anyone else have a reason for tilting? I am sort of wanting to hear that I am all wrong and tilt is a bad idea because it would then be one less thing to think about.


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[ArmWhip]

The low rise has been used effectively. How do you throw it, lean back or tilt forward?

 

[jfitch12]

The low rise has been used effectively. How do you throw it, lean back or tilt forward?

I asked her. She says she leans back the same amount on a low rise as on one at the top of the zone; she just adjusts the height based on where she looks. Otherwise, she says, the spin would be screwed up on the low rise if she tilted forward. She says that she only changes her posture on the rise for a very high one (like eye level), in which case she leans back a little more.

Of course these reports are what she feels and may not be what she really does. I take what I think may be your point—namely that there has to be some posture adjustment to move up or down within the same pitch type, even if the pitcher herself does not realize it.


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[Fluid Fastpitch]

Of course these reports are what she feels and may not be what she really does. I take what I think may be your point—namely that there has to be some posture adjustment to move up or down within the same pitch type, even if the pitcher herself does not realize it.

I'd be super interested to see slow-mo of her high rise vs. low rise vs. drop. I agree that she's probably adjusting posture subtly without realizing it.

To the point about posture being an easy pick. We've all seen those pitchers that try to adjust their release point down to their knee for a rise or up to their hip for a drop. That's an easy pick, imo. A 3 degree adjustment in body posture when the tilt is away from the hitter (not a left/right lean). I don't think that's as easy a pick unless you're really familiar with the pitcher. Curious on @RADcatcher's thoughts.