Daughter's pitching coach wants to teach the curve before the drop - thoughts?

[wheresmycar]

As far as I'm concerned, no pitcher at the 14U level is considered to "have" a pitch unless they can consistently hit each spot/corner 8 out of 10 pitches.

Haha. I guess you coached a lot of pitchers with zero pitches... what did you call then?

 

[Tatonka]

Haha. I guess you coached a lot of pitchers with zero pitches... what did you call then?

Ya, that's always a question mark isn't it? It's a great goal and obviously consistency and reliability matter, but how specific are we when measuring that? Same quadrant of the zone? One ball off, 2 balls off? 8 out of 10, 10 sets in a row? At 14U? Sometimes the same pitch/location doesn't even get called the same way 8 out 10 times by the ump (not trying to bash any umpires here so save it). BTW, I've used that same goal so to work on mastering that pitch with DD so I do understand. And this is why we practice!

 

[injnyr]

I agree on mastering the other pitches. Her nor I brought up the new pitch. It was definitely the PC and maybe she has learned others leave, but that isn't how our family works. Like I said, we aren't demanding anything but learning and fun. Not looking for anything beyond high school yet. And our area high school is not that competitive.

My main concern is my daughter is only pitching mid 40's as she just moved back to 43ft. Sometimes gets it a little faster. I thought increasing accuracy with corners and increasing velocity on her fastball should be the priority. The CU she is good at, I am not going to lie. She used to rainbow it or leave it hanging at 40ft sometimes, but has improved that to knees or lower at 43ft.

I feel like she is still pretty young and not fast enough to get enough spin to even have a successful curve. The PC rationale was that at this age drop balls tend to sit and kids hit ground balls, but isn't that the point? Easy outs are almost as good as SO. Our team has the defense. I fear that a curve is a recipe for wild pitches/past balls.

I'd stay focused on the mastery of a few. Not that she can't learn the other ones, but the vertical breaking pitches will serve your DD and her team better. My older DD is an 08 and also just started 14U. Of the 3 pitchers we have on the team, she held it together the most in our first tournament this past weekend because of landing the fastball/drop and changeup with high efficiency. We haven't moved on to other pitches yet because I feel she needs to master her current ones a bit more. Her changeup is currently a flip, but we have been working on another change to better compliment the increase in fastball/drop speed. Last May she was averaging 40, a year later averaging 55 on the fastball. Changeup has held between 32-35. It still gets batters, but it's not as deceiving. Her new change is landing around 46-48, just needs more consistency. Keep focusing on mechanics, 12-6 spin, and location. Speed will get there...

 

[radness]

Gravity helps the drop.

 

[ArmWhip]

You need to know what kind of spin she throws on her fastball, maybe she already has a lot of top spin (drop). There are two ways to throw the curve, give them a try, maybe she's a natural at one of them. I like my pitchers to experiment and become familiar with spinning the ball even if they don't immediately develop a pitch.

 

[RIZZARIJOE]

Hi all,

My daughter is a Aug 09, but is playing up at 14UB this season with the rest of her team (combo of 08/09) She is doing well at 43 ft and has mastered the flip change pretty well. Not perfect and sometimes she releases too late and it rainbows. Most of the time it is pretty deadly, especially now that they moved up to 43. I would say since turning 12 and moving back to 43ft last month, her average speed is around 46mph.

Last lesson her pitching coach wanted to start incorporating spin and practice starting the curve ball mechanics She sees that she tends to cross over a bit and has natural spin to her ball and thinks that is the best pitch for her to learning next. The other pitcher is just starting to learn a drop with a different pitching coach. 3rd pitcher is still mastering the CU with another coach as well.

We are not looking for D1 college or even possibly playing in college right now. The goal is to pitch in high school and continue on with this team at the B level, eventually getting to A level maybe. But she isn't the 24/7 fanatic of softball that some kids are and that is okay. My oldest had D2/3 offers and decided to go to a D1 college for astro engineering and only play club softball. She is extremely happy. So we have been pretty laid back with this one too.

So this 12yr old loves being a P/1B and a power hitter. She is usually in one of those positions so she can be in the batting line-up Anyway, not sure if she has the strength/speed for a curve yet, or if it is even needed, but I don't want to overstep the pitching coach. It seems most coaches teach drop first. Of course my 12yr old was thrilled, so I guess if it motivates her, I let her try it a few weeks and see?

Thoughts on if I am going about this right or wrong?

Talk to 1000 instructors and you’ll get probably 1000 theories on which pitches to teach first. I teach the girls to get a consistent grip on the fastball, then mastering the fastball, then mastering the peel drop, which really mimics a fastball. After that, I teach the turnover drop. I’m a firm believer in mastering one pitch before moving on. No there are a lot of other instructors that would disagree with me, and I can’t really argue with your logic.

I guess the litmus test is whether or not your daughter seems to be getting sensory overload I’m tryingTo do too many things.


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[RIZZARIJOE]

I have several thoughts on the subject which I will share as both a longtime TB Head Coach and a longtime Hitting Coach. From the TB HC's perspective, I hear numerous times a year how many pitches various pitchers have. I'm not saying your post mind you. Just in general. As far as I'm concerned, no pitcher at the 14U level is considered to "have" a pitch unless they can consistently hit each spot/corner 8 out of 10 pitches. Unfortunately, so many parents don't realize how important mastering each individual pitch is before moving onto learning a new pitch. Also unfortunately, many pitching coaches give into the demand of those parents wanting to learn a new pitch instead of losing the student to the PC down the road that will teach it regardless of whether their ready or not.

From both the TB HC and Hitting coach point of views, I want my hitters swinging on plane with the ball. Any coach worth his salt wants the same thing. That means the bat is traveling (with the bat facing East to West) almost as if it were traveling across a piece of flat glass tilted on axis. What does a curveball do? Travels on a flat plane East to West. You'd be much better served by having your DD learn the drop since it doesn't stay on an East-West plane. It travels North to South. Thus, it's much harder to hit than the curve.

I couldn’t have said this any better! I can’t tell you how many well-meaning dadsTell me that their daughter has six different pitches. I even hear some dad’s claim the daughter has a rise ball at12u. All the pitches look the same. I agree with you that you do not want to have the ball on the same plane. That is why I have a girls learn the peel drop first. As much as I would love to be able to teach girls the rise ball, The minimum speed that you need to really throw one is 56 mph. It takes approximately four times as much rotation as a drop.

As both a pitching coach and umpire, I’m always getting upset when I see a girl attempting maybe three change ups in a game. If you’ve got a good change up, use it. It creates a little bit of hesitation in the batter. If you only use it a couple of times in the game, nobody is going to respect it.


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[YOCOACH]

Haha. I guess you coached a lot of pitchers with zero pitches... what did you call then?

Obviously you either haven't coached a higher level TB team or been a part of one. I have 3 pitchers that I consider to have 3-4 pitches each. They hit their spots 8 out of 10 times with all of them and when they are on with a particular pitch, better than that. By hitting their spots, I mean the actual corner that is called, either for a ball that is called 1 or 2 balls off the plate, or a strike. BTW, I don't call the pitches. I actually start teaching my catchers to do it at the 12U level. Occasionally I make a suggestion but not often, unless they get themselves into trouble/situations that could cost us the game.

 

[cnardone]

I fear that a curve is a recipe for wild pitches/past balls.

Make no mistake, learning the drop will also be a recipe for wild pitches. Don't make that your determining factor. As noted, my dd learned the drop. I agree with the notion that the drop is preferable. But talk to the coach about why the curve.

Understanding the old adage, 'Even a blind squirrel finds a nut...", nobody, MLB included, hits a good breaking ball. Lots of hangers and rollers get hammered. But good ones, not so much.
As your dd's PC why. If there is something in you dd's delivery that will make a curve quick and easy, or more effective to get that may be the reason why.

 

[abbygale]

At 43 mph I would consider that the pc is doing this to increase speed and a sense of urgency. It wouldn't be the first time. Downside is that I would bet a bazillion dollars she will never have a quality rise if she learns the curve first.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.