Changing times for pitchers

[Rick M]

Interesting discussion. In my experience, it’s much harder to work on developing velocity than movement. The girls I know that are throwing 60+ at 14U and above are big girls. DD works her butt off, but she’s 5’3” and 115 pounds. No amount of work is going to put her at that elite speed level.

But making the ball move and hitting her spots, that she can work on and there’s no ceiling to where she can get. And while she’s working on craft, the girl who is 5’10” and 170 lbs is just blowing hitters away at 10U and 12U. When the fireballer starts getting hit in HS, she’s got a lot of catching up to do to learn not just to throw, but to pitch.

The big, hard throwers who also put in the time to learn location and movement are the ones starting for competitive P5 schools.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hillhouse]

Speed is easier in 2021 because of the new pitching rules. A lot of pitchers inadvertently "over throw" a lot because they have so much extra power from being allowed to have 1 foot on the rubber. From experience I can tell you this difference is so huge it's hard to explain. 2 feet on vs. 1 foot is two completely different animals. Trust me. I always felt I had more movement (and a better change up) when I pitched with 2 feet on the rubber, but gained some MPH with 1 foot.

 

[ArmWhip]

"Since the aerodynamic force depends on the square of the velocity, doubling the velocity will quadruple the lift and drag."

This from NASA, so assuming the spin rate stays the same more speed means more break not less.

In my experience if you want more velocity you have to throw harder in practice, all the time. Also, I have had pitchers with good breaking and off speed pitches who have trouble throwing them in games because they are not throwing these pitches at game speed in practice.

 

[EdLovrich]

"Since the aerodynamic force depends on the square of the velocity, doubling the velocity will quadruple the lift and drag."

I believe this is in reference to the velocity of the the airflow over the surface, which is more heavily influenced by the spin rate than the vel through the air.

This is from fastpitch.tv :


Fastpitch Softball Spin Rate Measurements:

High School,

• Average: 17-18 rps
• Good: 19-21 rps
• Excellent: 22+ rps

So to go from average spin rate to excellent at the HS level is an increase of approx. 25% that is an increase in aerodynamic force of 56% (1.25^2).

From fastpitcher.com we get the following averages for 16 y.o. pitchers: Average speeds 51-55 MPH High-end averages 56-62 MPH.

For a 16 y.o with average speed to achieve the same increase of aerodynamic force through pure speed as she would get from increasing her spin rate from average to excellent, she would need to get to approx. 82.68 MPH!!! (53 MPH x 1.56)

And that only gets her the same amount of additional aerodynamic force over a given time. It should be obvious, that even if a pitcher were able to get to the speed needed, that the pitch would be in flight a significantly shorter period of time and would actually achieve LESS movement over the given distance from release to the plate.

 

[Vertigo]

I think what I’ve been seeing is that the true “power pitchers” made it all the way through HS without ever needing to learn how to throw a good changeup. Once they get to college (especially P5), they need to have something else in their arsenal that is off-speed. If they don’t, they get hit, and hit hard. Gone are the days of blowing it by the batter for those pitchers who lived on speed. It can be difficult to learn a changeup when you’ve devoted most of your time to increasing your velocity. Having a reliable, consistent CU also helps to set up other movement pitches. I think we are starting to see more love for the finesse pitchers in recent years.

 

[ArmWhip]

I believe this is in reference to the velocity of the the airflow over the surface, which is more heavily influenced by the spin rate than the vel through the air.

This is from fastpitch.tv :


Fastpitch Softball Spin Rate Measurements:

High School,

• Average: 17-18 rps
• Good: 19-21 rps
• Excellent: 22+ rps

So to go from average spin rate to excellent at the HS level is an increase of approx. 25% that is an increase in aerodynamic force of 56% (1.25^2).

From fastpitcher.com we get the following averages for 16 y.o. pitchers: Average speeds 51-55 MPH High-end averages 56-62 MPH.

For a 16 y.o with average speed to achieve the same increase of aerodynamic force through pure speed as she would get from increasing her spin rate from average to excellent, she would need to get to approx. 82.68 MPH!!! (53 MPH x 1.56)

And that only gets her the same amount of additional aerodynamic force over a given time. It should be obvious, that even if a pitcher were able to get to the speed needed, that the pitch would be in flight a significantly shorter period of time and would actually achieve LESS movement over the given distance from release to the plate.

My post is in regard to the idea that by throwing the ball slower you get more break, spin rate wasn't mentioned. I'm guessing that this is based on the idea that a ball with less velocity/momentum would be easier to deflect, but it would also have less aerodynamic force acting on it. That is what I am pointing out. To me less speed means less break, but I don't know what the science of it is.

The one thing that gets overlooked in this is that as a ball slows down the axis of spin stays the same but the airflow changes direction as it drops more. So the axis of spin is a factor, if the spin is perfectly horizontal, as the ball drops it will generate less Magnus force as the trajectory goes downward.

 

[EdLovrich]

but it would also have less aerodynamic force acting on it.

If the spin rates are the same and it is just the velo that changes, yes, there is less force acting on the ball, however it will have a longer time to act. This is what gives a slower pitch WITH THE SAME spin rate a greater movement. You do not gain enough net force by increasing velo alone to overcome the loss of flight time.

 

[Hillhouse]

I think what I’ve been seeing is that the true “power pitchers” made it all the way through HS without ever needing to learn how to throw a good changeup. Once they get to college (especially P5), they need to have something else in their arsenal that is off-speed. If they don’t, they get hit, and hit hard. Gone are the days of blowing it by the batter for those pitchers who lived on speed. It can be difficult to learn a changeup when you’ve devoted most of your time to increasing your velocity. Having a reliable, consistent CU also helps to set up other movement pitches. I think we are starting to see more love for the finesse pitchers in recent years.

Not to split hairs Vertigo, but there's a point in what you said that needs to be addressed. As someone "in the know" (as many here are also) it's important to acknowledge that nobody is recruited based off HS stats. You're absolutely right that a dominating HS pitcher can probably survive without a Change up. But, this kid isn't likely to be recruited by a P5 school. Heck maybe not even a mid major. Maybe not even D1. Yet in post after post, here and other places, people go on and on about their HS stats with the fallacy that these stats are going to get them recruited. I don't know any college coach that asks a recruit about their HS stats. I know colleges list in player bio's when someone is Gatorade POY but, those players are almost all playing on top travel teams in addition to playing HS ball.

There are 5 stats in the country that play softball in the fall (Iowa is the only state that actually plays HS ball in the SUMMER). Sometimes to get an advantage, college coaches will visit a stud at their fall HS games. But for the most part, it's not cost effective for coaches to visit a HS game where they may recruit 1 person vs. going to a travel ball event where they can see 100's. 2 years ago, I went to a HS tournament in September here in Omaha where Washington, Minnesota, Oklahoma, North Carolina, and Nebraska were in attendance to see the #1 recruit in the country, pitcher Jordyn Bahl (she eventually signed with Oklahoma and will be a freshman this coming fall). Those coaches and schools were willing to spend that extra few bucks to show up at her HS games in their recruitment effort because this was the #1 player in the country. But that's the exception that proves the rule that coaches don't go to HS games.

That said, I cannot emphasis enough how much a difference this new pitching rule is going to continue to have until everyone is used to the new 1 foot rule. Soon things will be back to normal but, for the time being a lot of people are seeing spikes in pitching speeds thanks to the new rule and it will take a few years for that to level out.

 

[Vertigo]

Thanks Bill. The pitchers I’m referring to did play on National level TB teams who dominated their local HS scene and the TB circuit. They were recruited by P5 schools.

 

[Rick M]

Thanks Bill. The pitchers I’m referring to did play on National level TB teams who dominated their local HS scene and the TB circuit. They were recruited by P5 schools.

I did the same thing, I think in the context of this discussion High School simply refers to an age range of 16-18U, not to a player who only plays school ball and not travel.

As an aside, I watched the Mets - Phillies game last night which featured three different pitchers who broke the 100 mph threshold multiple times. Power pitching obits are premature, IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk