Changeup Velocity

[_MIA_]

I'm having trouble following this part. If speed is a factor in the reaction time, how does it also allow for more adjustment in the swing itself? If it's slower in velocity, wouldn't that also affect the reaction time? 40', 43', 46', 60'6" - any change in velocity gives me more time to react. If the ball is slower in SB, why would I start my swing at the same time?

Lets just say in both sports you don't recognize the pitch until it is 10 feet away. If the pitch is slower, you will have more time to adjust over that 10 feet.

 

[MNDad]

I think part of the reason is that so few kids have really good change ups. Most are telegraphed. Either by their motion or they come in with a huge arc. This is true even in college. When I read about a 10U or 12U pitcher with a devastating change up I just roll my eyes.

 

[_MIA_]

I think part of the reason is that so few kids have really good change ups. Most are telegraphed. Either by their motion or they come in with a huge arc. This is true even in college. When I read about a 10U or 12U pitcher with a devastating change up I just roll my eyes.

Yes that was partly my point when I said comparing to MLB was not an apples to apples comparison...

 

[Hillhouse]

What part of my post don't you understand? Velocity is a simple concept, it is measured in miles per hour, a 70 mph pitch is slower than a 100 mph pitch. You are confusing velocity with reaction time, which I mentioned.

Yes, 70 is slower than 100. But you don't seem to be factoring in the equivalency. Unless I'm misunderstanding which is ENTIRELY possible. They used to show these conversion charts on tv at the WCWS, I don't know if they've done it recently. For example, in a quick google search for softball to baseball speed conversion it showed (and it actually used men's fastpitch as the example) a 75 mph pitch in softball is equal to 100 mph in baseball. Of course, using the men's FP as an example is still skewed because it would assume the pitcher is 46 ft away, but as we all know men's pitchers "cheat" by crow hopping. Assuming the backfoot lands at 43 feet (which is reasonable) then that's where they'd be releasing, although it's actually probably a little bit closer since even though the back foot lands at 43', there's still a push and drag from that release point. Anyway, using 43' as our baseline, a 75 mph pitch is equal to 106 in baseball. I've never seen a baseball pitcher throw 106. And 75 mph is would be about average in men's FP, at the top level, not a beer league.

Taking this one step further, females start at 43'. Assuming there's no Kelly Barnhill crow hop, the pitcher is probably throwing from 40' give or take after the explosion off the rubber. So using 65mph at 40 feet release is equal to 98 mph, which is on the high end of what an MLB pitcher throws.

I don't think you can separate the 2, velocity and reaction time. They go hand in hand when talking about the effectiveness of pitches, especially a change up.

I do think there is a such thing as "too slow" for a change up. But if you're gearing up for what equates to a 106 mph pitch, and the pitcher throws it 20mph slower than expected, the hitter will still look like a fool. This supposes that the pitcher is not telegraphing the pitch. If you're gearing up for something that passes you, literally, in the blink of an eye then I think it think there's a lot more wiggle room for how much speed is taken off than is being discussed here. I've seen it. I've done it. And I've swung at them myself. I've faced pitchers that throw low to mid 80's, and their change up is probably not even 60mph and I've fallen down like an idiot swinging the bat. Again, these are pitchers who don't telegraph the pitch at all.

So what I'm saying is, the effectiveness of a change up, regardless of it's speed, is directly related to how fast the pitcher is throwing. There absolutely is a such thing as too slow. But, that too is in related to how fast someone is throwing and if they are telegraphing.

 

[_MIA_]

Yes, 70 is slower than 100. But you don't seem to be factoring in the equivalency. Unless I'm misunderstanding which is ENTIRELY possible. They used to show these conversion charts on tv at the WCWS, I don't know if they've done it recently. For example, in a quick google search for softball to baseball speed conversion it showed (and it actually used men's fastpitch as the example) a 75 mph pitch in softball is equal to 100 mph in baseball. Of course, using the men's FP as an example is still skewed because it would assume the pitcher is 46 ft away, but as we all know men's pitchers "cheat" by crow hopping. Assuming the backfoot lands at 43 feet (which is reasonable) then that's where they'd be releasing, although it's actually probably a little bit closer since even though the back foot lands at 43', there's still a push and drag from that release point. Anyway, using 43' as our baseline, a 75 mph pitch is equal to 106 in baseball. I've never seen a baseball pitcher throw 106. And 75 mph is would be about average in men's FP, at the top level, not a beer league.

Taking this one step further, females start at 43'. Assuming there's no Kelly Barnhill crow hop, the pitcher is probably throwing from 40' give or take after the explosion off the rubber. So using 65mph at 40 feet release is equal to 98 mph, which is on the high end of what an MLB pitcher throws.

I don't think you can separate the 2, velocity and reaction time. They go hand in hand when talking about the effectiveness of pitches, especially a change up.

I do think there is a such thing as "too slow" for a change up. But if you're gearing up for what equates to a 106 mph pitch, and the pitcher throws it 20mph slower than expected, the hitter will still look like a fool. This supposes that the pitcher is not telegraphing the pitch. If you're gearing up for something that passes you, literally, in the blink of an eye then I think it think there's a lot more wiggle room for how much speed is taken off than is being discussed here. I've seen it. I've done it. And I've swung at them myself. I've faced pitchers that throw low to mid 80's, and their change up is probably not even 60mph and I've fallen down like an idiot swinging the bat. Again, these are pitchers who don't telegraph the pitch at all.

So what I'm saying is, the effectiveness of a change up, regardless of it's speed, is directly related to how fast the pitcher is throwing. There absolutely is a such thing as too slow. But, that too is in related to how fast someone is throwing and if they are telegraphing.

Read post #41

 

[Shiloh]

Funny story re: CU

DD was pitching the fifth game of the day, her third. 90 degree heat. Dry, dusty.
She's pretty much done, so is her team, and so is the other team, our crosstown rival.

So she decides to just throw her curve, as it's her best pitch, easiest for her to throw.
Moves it up and down a bit, backdoors it, changes speeds on it. Other team is stymied.

Come the 4th inning, their coach starts yelling at the top of his lungs, throwing his arms in the air "Why can't you hit that?" "It's one pitch!" "It's the same pitch, over and over and over and over" "Hit the stupid ball!"

Everyone lost it.

I never laughed so hard in my life.
He was right.

Velo is sexy and easy to measure, but movement and change of speed win games.
And it did that day.

Good times.

 

[Capone]

Read post #41

Question trying to understand. are you saying that since a person recognizes a pitch at 10 feet, the softball player has more time to react and change the swing than baseball because of the velocity? By the 10 foot mark, they should have already began the swing process. In general, a softball player has less time to react to a softball pitch vs. baseball overall, i.e. from time the pitch is released from the hand

 

[_MIA_]

Question trying to understand. are you saying that since a person recognizes a pitch at 10 feet, the softball player has more time to react and change the swing than baseball because of the velocity? By the 10 foot mark, they should have already began the swing process. In general, a softball player has less time to react to a softball pitch vs. baseball overall, i.e. from time the pitch is released from the hand

I was just trying to explain the point (I think) @ArmWhip was making e.g if at 10 feet away from the plate they say "Oh sh*%, I am fooled" the softball player will have more time to try and adjust than the baseball player since the ball is moving slower..Not saying whether the point is valid or not with regards to the initial post..

 

[jfitch12]

Question trying to understand. are you saying that since a person recognizes a pitch at 10 feet, the softball player has more time to react and change the swing than baseball because of the velocity? By the 10 foot mark, they should have already began the swing process. In general, a softball player has less time to react to a softball pitch vs. baseball overall, i.e. from time the pitch is released from the hand

Not trying to speak for pattar, but I think the point is that the “formulas” Bill referenced, comparing baseball and softball velocities, are really misleading because they simply compare reaction time. In reality, absolute velocity is much more important. Consider the following pitches:

1. 30 mph at 20 feet
2. 60 mph at 40 feet
3. 120 mph at 80 feet

The reaction time is the same in each example. Thus, the “formulas” would say that these speeds are “equivalent.” In reality, however, virtually anyone can hit number 1–it’s basically front toss—and virtually no one can hit #3. The reason, as pattar said, is that the swing is largely launched after the ball is in flight. So absolute velocity is more important than reaction time, and a slower pitch from closer range is easier to hit than a faster one from further away, all else being equal.

Edited to add: And to the point pattar just made (which is slightly different), I am not sure, but I am guessing the reason softball changeups are generally much slower than baseball—averaging 15-35 percent speed reduction in softball versus 8 to 15 percent in baseball—is because the slower absolute speed of the pitch requires a bigger differential to prevent adjustments. Maybe I am wrong about that, but it would also explain why even in baseball the differential often gets smaller the harder people throw. Guys that throw 98 can throw a change at 92, whereas guys throwing 88 need to throw the change around 78.


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[_MIA_]

I honestly think the difference people see (if there indeed is a notable difference) would be what @MNDad mentioned and which I alluded to in my first post..MLB CU are probably just better than most of the CU you see in softball for various reasons (more movement, better deception,etc)...