Changeup Velocity

[coachbubbles]

Not enough discussion of this. I see a lot of effort to keep getting the change-up slower and slower, but if it's too slow, it gives the hitter time to get fooled and still adjust. The ideal speed is a speed that will 1) be slow enough to get a hitter thinking fastball to be too far out in front and 2) is fast enough that a hitter that is briefly fooled will then be late adjusting.

A super slow change could be effective as a novelty pitch, like an eephus pitch, where it's so far out of the ordinary that a hitter can't expect it or adjust to it for that single pitch. But if all you do is throw those, even average hitters will adjust to them.

Agreed - more than 15mph gets consistently crushed at A level travel. Too much time to reload and fire the barrel on it. Those flip changes look cool but can get roasted. DD runs about 12 slower and throws a double knuckle that runs away from a righty and drops. Even when they know it’s coming it’s hard to square up because of the movement…unless she leaves it up.

Without a doubt she is most effective when a steady dose of the stinky cheese is called. She sits game speed 57-58 and can be very effective at 15%-20% changeups. Lots of endcappers and swings and misses by a small margin of error. If she gets a pitch caller that calls 3-5 per 85 pitches she usually gets smacked around some. She has a great drop and plane ball but that change is absolutely what makes her the pitcher she is. If I could do it all over again we would have thrown way more at younger ages even if they got hit, so that she got that absolute confidence to throw it at a younger age.

Oh….and probably one of the most valuable DFP tips I ever read…..was the picklejar change. Took DD’s differential from 8-10 to 12-13 almost instantly when I told her to think about spinning the lid off a jar! Some great knowledge on here!

TIP of the DAY:
Throw that stinky cheese early and often!!

 

[Vertigo]

DD’s CU is right around 20 mph slower than her fastest pitch, which is her curve. she does a great job at keeping it low in the zone and throws it with drop-curve movement so it moves away from the batter. Lots of swings and misses in both HS and high-level TB. She also throws an off-speed drop which is about 8-10 mph slower. That pitch will induce the weak hits.

 

[jfitch12]

A big difference that I have seen between baseball and softball changeups lies in the relationship between grip and velocity. Most baseball changeups rely primarily, if not exclusively, on the grip to change the speed of the ball. Yes, many baseball pitchers will pronate the changeup ("turn it over," "throw the O," pick your cue), but pronation is intended far more to create arm-side run and sink than to reduce speed (though it does have that effect to a fairly small degree).

In contrast, most softball changeups rely on not only the grip but also other changes in the kinetic chain to reduce speed--i.e. turning the hand down at 9 o'clock (to cut down on IR) or pinning the drive foot (to reduce linear force). The Pauly change-up is a good example. As I recall, Coach Pauly has a series of cues to reduce whip from the shoulder down. It's not just the grip that does the work. Indeed, some softball changeups—like a flip change—do not rely on grip at all. There are no flip changeups in baseball.

Why does this matter? It largely explains (again in my experience) why baseball changeups are faster, easier to learn, and frequently more deceptive. They are faster because there is only one (possibly two) speed reducers (grip and some pronation). They are easier to learn because there is only one (possibly two) mechanical adjustments. And most importantly, they can be more deceptive because a baseball pitcher has only one intent when throwing a changeup: throw the s**t out of the ball.

A good baseball changeup looks like the ball has been shot in mid flight by someone with a rifle standing behind the catcher. The "pull the string" metaphor is as good a visual as any. It often does not matter if the hitter knows that the changeup is coming because the hitter still cannot match the pitch speed to the arm speed.

Softball changeups can be just as deceptive, but the deception is a lot harder to achieve because the pitcher cannot just grip it and "throw it like a fastball." The other mechanical changes that are necessary to throw a good softball changeup can be spotted.

 

[Gtrips07]

If you don't have a fastball you don't have a change up. The difference in speed is so important. The change up has to be about 10mph slower. Calling the change up at the right time is also very important.

I know that for pitchers trying out for the USA Junior Olympic team your changeup had to be 13-14 MPH slower than your fastball. Key to a good changeup is having a ton of spin as well and be able to locate very precisely. A half of an inch can be the difference between a pop-up and a homerun.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[ArmWhip]

A big difference that I have seen between baseball and softball changeups lies in the relationship between grip and velocity. Most baseball changeups rely primarily, if not exclusively, on the grip to change the speed of the ball. Yes, many baseball pitchers will pronate the changeup ("turn it over," "throw the O," pick your cue), but pronation is intended far more to create arm-side run and sink than to reduce speed (though it does have that effect to a fairly small degree).

In contrast, most softball changeups rely on not only the grip but also other changes in the kinetic chain to reduce speed--i.e. turning the hand down at 9 o'clock (to cut down on IR) or pinning the drive foot (to reduce linear force). The Pauly change-up is a good example. As I recall, Coach Pauly has a series of cues to reduce whip from the shoulder down. It's not just the grip that does the work. Indeed, some softball changeups—like a flip change—do not rely on grip at all. There are no flip changeups in baseball.

Why does this matter? It largely explains (again in my experience) why baseball changeups are faster, easier to learn, and frequently more deceptive. They are faster because there is only one (possibly two) speed reducers (grip and some pronation). They are easier to learn because there is only one (possibly two) mechanical adjustments. And most importantly, they can be more deceptive because a baseball pitcher has only one intent when throwing a changeup: throw the s**t out of the ball.

A good baseball changeup looks like the ball has been shot in mid flight by someone with a rifle standing behind the catcher. The "pull the string" metaphor is as good a visual as any. It often does not matter if the hitter knows that the changeup is coming because the hitter still cannot match the pitch speed to the arm speed.

Softball changeups can be just as deceptive, but the deception is a lot harder to achieve because the pitcher cannot just grip it and "throw it like a fastball." The other mechanical changes that are necessary to throw a good softball changeup can be spotted.

I think you're on to something here. Plus a softball, because of the lower velocity, is spending more time in the contact zone. The reaction time from release to swing initiation is roughly the same in baseball and softball, but the slower velocity allows for more swing adjustment. I know that it is subjective but I don't see the number of swing and misses in softball that I see in baseball.

 

[Hillhouse]

I think you're on to something here. Plus a softball, because of the lower velocity, is spending more time in the contact zone. The reaction time from release to swing initiation is roughly the same in baseball and softball, but the slower velocity allows for more swing adjustment. I know that it is subjective but I don't see the number of swing and misses in softball that I see in baseball.

Lower velocity? Most of the speed equations I've seen have shown softball pitchers throwing faster than baseball pitchers when you calculate the difference in pitching distances. This seems to be true through the age groups: a 12U baseball pitcher throwing 60 or 70 (I have no idea what a 12u baseball pitcher throws) isn't as fast as a 12u softball pitcher throwing 50 when you calculate the difference. Unless I'm wrong on that? Then go all the way up to Olympic level, Monica Abbott's fastest pitch equates to way more than what Aroldis Chapman's fastest pitch is. Doesn't it? I always thought it did. I know the calculations in Men's FP are substantial, Adam Folkard throws 87 mph and when that was transferred over to what a baseball guy throws it's off the charts. It's really too bad he doesn't have much of a change.

 

[Hillhouse]

Out of curiosity, why is the drop the most important pitch to have in your mind? Apologies if you have explained in the past. Just trying to understand.

Because playing percentages, drop balls are the least likely pitch to get hit out of the yard. Typically, even a drop that doesn't bite down hard is still kept low, making it harder to not only go yard with but, also harder to lift over the shortstop's head. Ground balls stay groundballs in softball, pop flies are now home runs with the bats and balls today.

There's an old saying: Riseballs win you games, dropballs win you championships. It might've even been Mike White who said that. But he's old so it counts as an old saying!!! ha ha. And if you are lurking and reading this Whitey, I did beat you at golf!! ha ha ha (inside joke, sorry).

Again, so much of pitching is throwing the right pitch at the right time. There's 1000 variables that go into each and every pitch that is thrown so it becomes hard to know what's exactly right, all you can do is play the percentages. But the pitching calling I see, as a whole from Travel to the college level, is head scratching to say the least. The hitters are getting better and better, and their equipment continues to improve. Yet too many pitchers are being told what to throw by someone on the sidelines who thinks a chart is going to tell them what they need to know. Hey, sometimes those charts are right. But again, a lot of times we confuse good pitching with bad hitting and vice versa. As I said many times, I just wish catchers were trained in pitch calling when they're young. But trophy hunting coaches won't do that, or can't do that. It's quite the dilemma.

 

[ArmWhip]

Lower velocity? Most of the speed equations I've seen have shown softball pitchers throwing faster than baseball pitchers when you calculate the difference in pitching distances. This seems to be true through the age groups: a 12U baseball pitcher throwing 60 or 70 (I have no idea what a 12u baseball pitcher throws) isn't as fast as a 12u softball pitcher throwing 50 when you calculate the difference. Unless I'm wrong on that? Then go all the way up to Olympic level, Monica Abbott's fastest pitch equates to way more than what Aroldis Chapman's fastest pitch is. Doesn't it? I always thought it did. I know the calculations in Men's FP are substantial, Adam Folkard throws 87 mph and when that was transferred over to what a baseball guy throws it's off the charts. It's really too bad he doesn't have much of a change.

What part of my post don't you understand? Velocity is a simple concept, it is measured in miles per hour, a 70 mph pitch is slower than a 100 mph pitch. You are confusing velocity with reaction time, which I mentioned.

 

[Capone]

What part of my post don't you understand? Velocity is a simple concept, it is measured in miles per hour, a 70 mph pitch is slower than a 100 mph pitch. You are confusing velocity with reaction time, which I mentioned.

I thought there was less reaction time in Softball than baseball, at least that's what I hear.

 

[Gags]

The reaction time from release to swing initiation is roughly the same in baseball and softball, but the slower velocity allows for more swing adjustment.

I'm having trouble following this part. If speed is a factor in the reaction time, how does it also allow for more adjustment in the swing itself? If it's slower in velocity, wouldn't that also affect the reaction time? 40', 43', 46', 60'6" - any change in velocity gives me more time to react. If the ball is slower in SB, why would I start my swing at the same time?

Adam Folkard throws 87 mph and when that was transferred over to what a baseball guy throws it's off the charts.

I had the "good fortune" (not!) of facing 87 in the box a few weeks ago from 60'6". I (barely) fouled one off (sorry catcher), so I considered it a pretty successful AB. To think about stepping into the box to face 87, from 46', with a release point of what - 38'? Hell no. Maybe - MAYBE - if I got to wear one of those "bear proof" suits, I'd consider it. But 87? Nolan Ryan and DeGrom must have went back in time and created some demon spawn. Major respect for those players able to stand in there.