Cheating or Aggressive Base Running?

marriard said:

I am not a mind reader so I without being 100% sure it was fully intentional I just can't. Basically I need a confession. Which has happened a few times in my umpiring career. Two stand out...

Once in a different sport, I had a similar type of bush league tactic where the idiot coach came out yelling at us (because for some reason he was upset we had caught it???) and told us he intentionally did it, so we ejected him.

We did the same locally on 'intentionally running to 1st on ball 3 to try to get a free steal of second' - the coach kept gloating on how he was doing this between games which made its way other coaches and all the umpires, so he got tossed the next time he did it.

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I think these are perfectly fine replies. If you notice the instances I cited were all implemented in response to ongoing issues ... either by one team or in one area. In those cases, a sanctioning/governing body stepped in and instructed umpires to call it that way.

I would have to agree with you @marriard that unless I am aware of a pattern of this behavior (possible with a local team, in a tournament, notification by other umpires/coaches in advance, etc.) I am not jumping to an ejection. Looking back at my post on this topic on the other forum I mentioned, here was my reaction the first time I saw this online:

Here is my thing ... If I had this happen and I saw it happen BUT the defense did not appeal, at the end of the inning I would be going over to the coach and having a talk about sportsmanship ... paired with the warning. I'm not ringing up a runner and I'm not ejecting, but I am saying do NOT do that again. That action is not only not sporting, but it is making a mockery of the game and, IMO, an act of intentionally trying to show up an umpire. It is saying, "I know you can't make this call, so what are you going to do about it?"

After that, a coach who is coaching his players that way will be on a very short leash.

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My feelings on that are still the same. While I would support a rule change allowing for the runner to be called out, such a rule simply does not exist currently.

There are examples of "flaws" in the game being fixed (delayed dead balls that allow the hitter to hit an illegal pitch or the defense to turn a double play when a runner leaves early). I just don't see this as common enough of a circumstance to ever make it on the table though. I could be wrong.

The Man In Blue said:

By rule, it does. There is nothing more that can be said on that. You can say you don't like it, that's fine. It still is.

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Just stating the rule book is flawed to turn a blind eye to cheating on the hopes of an appeal. Out of the 3B baseline still in play or is their an excuse for that too?

I love all the people here that are constantly bashing umps for the "MSU rulebook" calls (and I agree with being upset about those), that now are being told what the rulebook says, and their response is to "MSU".

The coach is obviously having his player cut the base on purpose, but the play is an appeal play. The ump can't just make the out call on their own.

PapaBear said:

I stated the why, no need to confuse this play with a runner cut the bag too short by a few inches. The fact that visual cheating by a coach/player cannot be addressed shows flaws in the rule. The rule is for those attempting a softball play at the bag, not cutting it off by 10 feet. Like anything else when it comes to a call by the umpire, call her out for blatant cheating. When the offensive coach comes to ask why...."judgement call". Always the safe answer by blue.

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Just a note: This isn't a 'judgement call' so that is not the safe answer - it would be a MSU rule book call and how many of those umpires justify all their other MSU rule calls.

The rule doesn't specify how far they miss by - just that they miss. So that is not being confused. Missing the base is missing the base - 1 inch or 15 feet.

If I was being assessed for this game and made an out call without an appeal this would be a major deduction on my assessment. As it should be.

I know it sucks - some @(#&(@ got away with his bush league tactic. I hate that as well. Good news is that plays like this rarely happen - even here a simple appeal and this discussion never has to happen.

Hillhouse said:

Bobby "the brain" Heenan of pro wrestling.

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It has been way too long since I read a Bobby “The Brain” quote.

Bill, if you have more I implore you to share them, lol!

RADcatcher said:

Umpires failed.

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How did the umpires fail? The offended team has to appeal. If they don’t, nothing the umpires can do.

marriard said:

The rule doesn't specify how far they miss by - just that they miss. So that is not being confused. Missing the base is missing the base - 1 inch or 15 feet.

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And this is the flaw in the book by having it a a missed base is a missed base. 1 inch or 15 feet.

The rule is in place for softball plays at the base not inside a radius not defined. Unfortunately because of the a missed base is a missed base we in this situation.

inumpire said:

How did the umpires fail? The offended team has to appeal. If they don’t, nothing the umpires can do.

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Backtrack on my posts you must have not read them. and apparently you missed other post conversation regarding.
Repeated that answer several times already.

Umpires can do something read back you'll find out what. Enjoy

can’t the umpire call the runner out for leaving 2nd base early which would negate the next part of missing 3rd?

1. after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; or
   NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

Not for sure if this applies, but to me the runner abandoned the effort to run the bases. The question is believing no farther play.