2 leaving base appeals today

[Cougars]

I understand that is the rule, my question would be why is that the rule? If a player leaves early on a steal attempt, there is no appeal, the ump calls them out. If the umpire knows they didn't tag up, call them out. Same with missing a base, etc.

It's not something I've lost a lot of sleep over, just something I've never understood.

 

[heman1202]

I understand that is the rule, my question would be why is that the rule? If a player leaves early on a steal attempt, there is no appeal, the ump calls them out. If the umpire knows they didn't tag up, call them out. Same with missing a base, etc.

It's not something I've lost a lot of sleep over, just something I've never understood.

Completely different situations. Leaving early is illegal. Not tagging up is a run at your own risk play. Defense needs to make the play on that.

 

[eddieq]

Basically, they are different because the rules say they are different.

Going by the USA Rulebook but all codes are similar

The rules state "the runner is out when..."

include "fails to maintain keep with the base to which the runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand". Doesn't mention an appeal, just "the runner is out". and the effect shows that the ball is dead, the runner is out and no pitch is declared (rule 8.7.S)

Also in Rule 8.7, (the runner is out...) - 8.7.F
When the runner leaves a base to advance to another base before a caught fly ball has touched a fielder, providing the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed.

The rules state one requires an appeal and the other does not. Different situations.

 

[Cougars]

I understand that is how the rule is written. This is more of a "if I was king" question. The umpires are there to officiate the game. If they see something like not tagging up, they should be able to call the runner out prior to play resuming/scoring a run, etc.

Maybe not a perfect comp, but imagine a football game and the ref sees a player holding, the play continues and everyone returns to the huddle for the next play. Then the other team has to appeal to get the holding called.

If I was king....

 

[EdLovrich]

Part of the reason for appeals, I think, and certain calls are not made automatically, is that the offense has the chance AND the ability to correct the situation. Tagging-up, missing a base, batting out of order are all appeal calls and things that the offending team can correct without gaining an advantage (in fact, in most cases they put themselves at a disadvantage by trying to correct the issue). Contrast this with the example of holding in football, where the damage is done and there isn't a way the offending team can undo it.

Again, just my supposition on why appeals are what they are, but makes sense in my hockey-style mask fried brain.

 

[JOHNN]

USSSA Rule 9 APEALS
Sec 4. The appeals must be made:
A. before the next legal or illegal pitch;
B. at the end of an inning, before all infielders have left fair territory and the catcher vacates their normal fielding position; or
C. on the last play of the game, before the Umpires leave the field of play.

So is this A plus B -or- possibly just C?

I understand section A. But how would an ump truly know if one of the outfielders isnt an infielder? And what if the catcher leaves the fielding position but an infielder stays?

Regarding section C, it seems like the coaches better hope for A or B bc from what Ive always seen, umpires typically leave the field as quickly as they can. To add to this, what if the defensive team stays on the field but the umps leave right away? Does the coach appealing coach then ask for the UIC or tournament director?

 

[Crabby_Bob]

So is this A plus B -or- possibly just C?

I understand section A. But how would an ump truly know if one of the outfielders isnt an infielder? And what if the catcher leaves the fielding position but an infielder stays?

Regarding section C, it seems like the coaches better hope for A or B bc from what Ive always seen, umpires typically leave the field as quickly as they can. To add to this, what if the defensive team stays on the field but the umps leave right away? Does the coach appealing coach then ask for the UIC or tournament director?

Any of A, B, or C negates the appeal.

For B, the umpire should be aware of the possibility of an appeal and be prepared to rule it is invalid because "all infielders have left fair territory and the catcher vacates their normal fielding position." If one infielder remains, that's not all infielders and the appeal should be ruled on. If the defense has run a shift with five infielders, a pitcher, and a catcher, wouldn't you rule an infield fly if the batter hit one? Same with an appeal. Or, are you thinking you might misidentify an outfielder as an infielder? Experience will help.

If the umpires have left the field, by rule, there is no appeal available. Who knows what the UIC or TD would actually do. USA softball offers this advice: RS 1.N End of Game. When a situation arises that could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, umpires should wait until all infielders have crossed the foul line on their way to the dugout before leaving the infield. If teams line up for "high-fives" there is little chance for an appeal even if the infielders have not crossed the foul line. Umpires should leave the field at this time. No appeal can be made once the umpires leave the field. NFHS offers similar guidance.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I understand that is the rule, my question would be why is that the rule? If a player leaves early on a steal attempt, there is no appeal, the ump calls them out. If the umpire knows they didn't tag up, call them out. Same with missing a base, etc.

It's not something I've lost a lot of sleep over, just something I've never understood.

Just speculation on my part ...

Leaving early on a caught fly ball derives from baseball rules.

Keeping contact with the bag/leaving early before the pitch is specific to softball (barring little kids' baseball where they do that to control the game).

 

[The Man In Blue]

So, for clarity,

in situation one, Defense should have thrown the ball to third before leaving field (since that runner never tagged up), is this the correct way to handle that?

in situation two, couldnt the defense have simply thrown to third, correct?

and in both cases, does throwing to third make obvious what they are appealing? or does someone (Coach, player, etc.) need to ask/declare something to the umpire(s)?

NCAA, NFHS, USA, and USSSA all do NOT require the ball to be thrown to the bag to make a proper appeal*. A verbal appeal is adequate by rule. By practice, the verbal appeal MUST be specific (at least, a good umpire will require that).

A mechanic that I use, and some will say is incorrect, is to hear the verbal appeal and then ask the coach/player to throw the ball over to the base (or take it over there). The physical appeal IS NOT NEEDED, however I find it really helps with the crowd. Most people see that and know what is happening before I call Little Missy Missed-It out.

*Clarification ... certain appeals MUST be live-ball appeals and those plays DO require a fielder to tag the runner with the ball. (IMO, I don't consider most of these as "appeals" so much as plays on a runner, but the rulebook does define them as such.)

 

[Chad504boy]

Game 1: runners on first and third, 1 out. Pop up to F4, catch, doubles off runner at first, but not before runner at third scored (without tagging up). Defense leaves field. Coach asks, does that run count? Yessir. (Let me know if you think I got that wrong).

Instead of yessir, wouldn't "at this present time it counts" be a more suitable answer to insinuate to the coach they have the ability to appeal what they are really getting at?