Crow hopping

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Sep 29, 2014
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We are talking about when the pitcher doesn't drag her foot but thanks for participating none the less.
Nobody should be talking about when the pitcher DOESN'T drag her foot, the moment her pivot foot leaves the ground it is an IP PERIOD STOP! That is defined as leaping and umpires at all levels recognize this and call this fairly regularly.

There are ruleset clarifications that basically IMO state that a crowhop while an interesting sidenote is not technically a category of IP since it can't occur outside of a leap. These clarifications are NOT made by officials for the NCAA which is where the rub comes. These calrifications state that if there is a constant contact of the pivot foot with the ground a "crowhop" or "replant" is not possible and it is classified as a drag push drag which is legal.

Some argue that Barnhill's foot leaves the ground on every pitch IMO that is not always the case and during the majority of time at real speed if it does happen it is not discernable to the naked eye from an umpire and as such should not be called as a leap.
 
Aug 30, 2015
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Nobody should be talking about when the pitcher DOESN'T drag her foot, the moment her pivot foot leaves the ground it is an IP PERIOD STOP! That is defined as leaping and umpires at all levels recognize this and call this fairly regularly.

There are ruleset clarifications that basically IMO state that a crowhop while an interesting sidenote is not technically a category of IP since it can't occur outside of a leap. These clarifications are NOT made by officials for the NCAA which is where the rub comes. These calrifications state that if there is a constant contact of the pivot foot with the ground a "crowhop" or "replant" is not possible and it is classified as a drag push drag which is legal.

Some argue that Barnhill's foot leaves the ground on every pitch IMO that is not always the case and during the majority of time at real speed if it does happen it is not discernable to the naked eye from an umpire and as such should not be called as a leap.
Yup...so the moral of this whole story is that while NFHS and USA define a crow hop, they also say it doesn't and can't exist.
 
Apr 28, 2019
1,423
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I'll take this from a different point of view...the athlete's point of view. Some may think I cheat on my taxes now (based on a previous post), but oh well.

I played 4 years of college football as an offensive lineman. For an offensive lineman, I wasn't the tallest; I wasn't the fastest and I definitely wasn't the strongest, but 3 of those years I was All-Conference and my senior year, I was a 2nd team All-American. What I did was study my opponents and find their weaknesses and exploit it to my advantage. Sometimes there were no weaknesses and I had to have a plan that may have "bent" the rules. I did whatever it took to beat my opponent. When I say “bent” the rules…I’m not talking about hurting anyone on purpose or anything like that. I’m talking about holding. When I say holding, I promise you that I was holding on every play of every game. I could do it better than anybody and not get caught. Is that against the rules. Yup! If no flag was thrown on me, I guarantee you the next play I was doing it again, and again, and again.

All this to say, I will do whatever it takes to beat you. If I have to bend the rules and not get caught doing it…I’m going to do it all day long. You can go home with your loss and I’ll go home with my Conference Championship ring (all 3 of them)!

And I have this to say, as well: The people here arguing about this have probably never stepped foot on a field and battled for themselves, one on one against another opponent. Comparing doing something against the rules in a sport setting and doing something illegal outside a sport setting is asinine. If holding was a crime, I would be serving a life sentence!
I guess that makes you an untalented, lazy, cheat. Nothing to be proud of Sport. Maybe you should have hit the gym a little more so you were stronger than your opponent, or worked on your agility training so you were quicker, etc...
All your telling me is that you were lazy and studied a little film and instead of working hard and beating your opponent fair & square you took short cuts. Nothing to brag about. You should be embarrassed. Did you take PED’s as well? Another shortcut.
Hopefully you don’t have kids. Winning at all costs is not what sports is about. It’s about respecting the game and your opponent along with your coaches and teammates.’ It’s about working hard and getting better everyday.
I played plenty of sports in my day and I never cheated to win. When you cheat the only person your cheating is yourself.
 
Feb 15, 2017
920
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I guess that makes you an untalented, lazy, cheat. Nothing to be proud of Sport. Maybe you should have hit the gym a little more so you were stronger than your opponent, or worked on your agility training so you were quicker, etc...
All your telling me is that you were lazy and studied a little film and instead of working hard and beating your opponent fair & square you took short cuts. Nothing to brag about. You should be embarrassed. Did you take PED’s as well? Another shortcut.
Hopefully you don’t have kids. Winning at all costs is not what sports is about. It’s about respecting the game and your opponent along with your coaches and teammates.’ It’s about working hard and getting better everyday.
I played plenty of sports in my day and I never cheated to win. When you cheat the only person your cheating is yourself.
So you just hurt them accidentally? And that was ok? A few uncalled crackback blocks so no big whip?

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May 29, 2015
3,731
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IMO, the USA explanation is one big poor justification and excuse for not enforcing the crow hop rule. I have to give it to them, though. They got very creative in explaining it away. The video is even a bad example--that guy can't even "crow drag" as good as some of these girls do. When the hands separate is a lame indicator; we all know most of these girls swing back and their hands are separated long before they even start to stride forward.

Anyone who has ever pitched themselves knows that the "crow drag" is an advantage.

Both USA and NFHS have verbiage specifically prohibiting a pitcher pushing off from anywhere other than the pitcher's plate. The "crow drag" is a pitcher pushing off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate.

Having said all that....I don't call it during a game. Why? A pitcher can't correct that delivery style without changing her mechanics and that just isn't going to happen during a game. It would be like asking the SS to switch and throw with the opposite hand.

If the pitcher actually goes airborne in the initial push off from the plate, then I will call an IP. But that's as far as I'm willing to take it. It can easily be corrected by continuing to drag the toe on the ground, but the re-plant and push won't go away.

At the end of the day, I think what we're collectively saying is we want to shut down the illegal pitchers but the only way to do that is to have the umpire call IP after IP after IP after IP until the pitcher has to leave the game.

I'm not sure that's ever happened in the history of the game and I'm not willing to be the first one to do it!

It has happened; I’ve done it more than once and I will continue to do it. A few years ago we had a local travel team that would yank one of their pitchers if they saw they had me (plate or bases).

I watched that pitcher pitch illegal (leaping) at pitching lessons (the same coach my daughter went to), in travel ball, in middle school, and in high school. I “ran her out of the game” (not my term) in an NFHS game about a month ago. Probably the last time I see her in her career. Consider it a nice parting gift.

Two weeks ago I had a girl “slide stepping” (sliding her foot forward and off the plate during her windup). It took me an inning to be sure that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. I warned my partner it was coming and ... first pitch of the second inning — ILLEGAL! I called her coach out and explained what she was doing. She NEVER did it again (in that game). She was taught that little trick — no pitcher corrects “a bad habit” 100% instantly.

As an umpire, it drives me just as crazy that most guys won’t call IPs. Even our local clinicians and perennial “staties” blow this constantly. My theory (just my theory) is that they don’t want to lose games from the coaches that are teaching the various IP practices.

NFHS even lessened the penalty this year (runners no longer advance) thinking this would help fix it. It hasn’t.

My thought: get off your @$$, throw up that left hand, and call it if it is illegal. Nothing else is your problem or concern. Sure, you are going to work with a 10u or 12u player learning to pitch on league night (or even early in pool play at a tourney). After that? You better have it together.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
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Have you read the rule clarification? As long as the pivot foot drags away there is nothing that says it cannot bear weight again. The delivery is referred to as a push drag push or crow drag delivery and is legal. But you can go ahead an keep arguing if you like. 7 pages of bs that was answered on page 1? I ask again, do you want to know what the rule really is or do you want to go on screaming about something you are apparently misinformed on or refuse to accept the answer. Either way I'm done, you all can continue to argue about it amongst yourselves.

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There is a big difference between “bearing weight again” and “pushing off” and so think that is where the confusion is happening here.

Bearing weight again is legal in NFHS and USA (not NCAA). Replanting (pushing off) is not.

In the video of the girl in purple (sorry, I didn’t pay that close of attention) it looks to me that she is bearing weight as a means to catch or rebalance herself. She does not appear to be pushing off from that second “pressure point”.
 
Mar 28, 2014
1,081
113
It has happened; I’ve done it more than once and I will continue to do it. A few years ago we had a local travel team that would yank one of their pitchers if they saw they had me (plate or bases).

I watched that pitcher pitch illegal (leaping) at pitching lessons (the same coach my daughter went to), in travel ball, in middle school, and in high school. I “ran her out of the game” (not my term) in an NFHS game about a month ago. Probably the last time I see her in her career. Consider it a nice parting gift.

Two weeks ago I had a girl “slide stepping” (sliding her foot forward and off the plate during her windup). It took me an inning to be sure that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. I warned my partner it was coming and ... first pitch of the second inning — ILLEGAL! I called her coach out and explained what she was doing. She NEVER did it again (in that game). She was taught that little trick — no pitcher corrects “a bad habit” 100% instantly.

As an umpire, it drives me just as crazy that most guys won’t call IPs. Even our local clinicians and perennial “staties” blow this constantly. My theory (just my theory) is that they don’t want to lose games from the coaches that are teaching the various IP practices.

NFHS even lessened the penalty this year (runners no longer advance) thinking this would help fix it. It hasn’t.

My thought: get off your @$$, throw up that left hand, and call it if it is illegal. Nothing else is your problem or concern. Sure, you are going to work with a 10u or 12u player learning to pitch on league night (or even early in pool play at a tourney). After that? You better have it together.
Thank God there is an umpire here with the guts to enforce the rules as they are written instead of just letting things go because they are "too hard to fix". Bravo to you Sir! You are what an umpire should be.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Thank God there is an umpire here with the guts to enforce the rules as they are written instead of just letting things go because they are "too hard to fix". Bravo to you Sir! You are what an umpire should be.

You’d be proud of me texasheat ... I had a game at a State Tournament today that looked like an Oprah Winfrey show taping. “You get an illegal pitch! You get an illegal pitch! And you get an illegal pitch! She gets an illegal pitch! Everybody gets an illegal pitch!”

9 illegal pitches on both teams in the first two innings resulting in two runs scored, three outs negated, and two strikeouts became walks. As an umpire, I hated that it had that much of an impact on the game.

The bad part is one pitcher corrected her illegal act with a different illegal act. By that point, I have to confess I gave up (she was being pummeled like a speed bag by then).
 
Mar 28, 2014
1,081
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Good Job Blue!

signed -- All of the pitchers who train their butt off to do it legally.


One point that is never talked about......................... those pitchers who do it legally watching those who do it illegally and never get called for it. They must think "Why do it the right way if the umpire is never going to penalize them for doing it the wrong way?". Not a good lesson to be teaching our youth.
 

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