Chasing for a tag

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2br02b

Trabant swing
Jul 25, 2017
303
43
Runner between 3rd and home suddenly finds herself facing the pitcher holding the ball. Runner about 20 feet from the bag, pitcher about 30.

Runner turns and runs towards 3rd, pitcher tags runner's back as she dives for the bag, and both go down in a heap. The ball is loose on the ground when the pitcher rolls over.

Is the runner out?
 
May 16, 2016
946
93
Did ball come loose during tag, or during the subsequent crash to ground? If ball pops out during tag, SAFE. If it came loose during fall to ground AFTER tag is applied, OUT.
 

2br02b

Trabant swing
Jul 25, 2017
303
43
Tag was clearly applied to the runner's back before the fall. Umpire ruled she didn't have control of the ball.

She ran almost 30 feet with the ball before applying the tag... She let go of the ball because she jammed her wrist when she hit the ground.
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
Of course as you describe sure....but the umpire might describe it differently like "she went to apply the tag and the ball started to pop out then fell completely out as she hit the ground." This is simply a judgement call as to when the ball begins to come loose.
 
Jun 4, 2014
159
28
We had this play in one of our games this weekend. Umpire ruled the ball came out when fielder hit the ground after applying the tag. Opposing coach went ballistic.
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
Tag was clearly applied to the runner's back before the fall. Umpire ruled she didn't have control of the ball.
She ran almost 30 feet with the ball before applying the tag... She let go of the ball because she jammed her wrist when she hit the ground.

The umpire judged that she ddn't have control of the ball to complete a tag. That was his judgement - that is the call and there is no real appeal here unless he gets the rule wrong - which can happen if you go out and politely say "I believe the ball only came out on the fall. When did you see the fielder lose control of the ball?". If he then agrees on when the ball came out because of the fall then you can say "Can you check with your partner on the ruling of a what makes a successful tag, because I believe the tag was already complete before they fell".

Really a HTBT call because I have no way of telling when the fielder lost control of the ball other than what you have written which is hearsay.

Last umpire training I went to used a 'on/off switch' analogy for calling this sort of play - basically once the connection is complete, it is a call . Once the tag is successful, it is successful and that means they had control of the ball through the actual tag. The fielder They don't need to take it to the ground. Or control it forever. If there was a controlled tag, then it is an out. But the umpire thought their wasn't and it is his judgement call to make.
 
Jul 14, 2018
982
93
...if you go out and politely say "I believe the ball only came out on the fall. When did you see the fielder lose control of the ball?". If he then agrees on when the ball came out because of the fall then you can say "Can you check with your partner on the ruling of a what makes a successful tag, because I believe the tag was already complete before they fell".

DD was involved in a similar play at the plate a few years ago. Earlier in the game, there was an obstruction call at third base. Our manager came out to argue with the umpire, and he kept asking for an "interference" call. The umpire was having none of it. When an AC yelled from the dugout "there was clearly obstruction," the HC changed his wording and said the 3B had caused an obstruction. The umpire nodded and said something to the effect of "that's your argument" and reversed his own call, calling the runner safe.

Sorry, longer than I thought. Anyway, later in the game, there's a play at the plate. DD was the catcher, she applied a tag to the runner, umpire signaled out, and then she flipped the ball from her glove over her throwing hand trying to hold the batter at second base. Umpire then signals safe. HC comes out to argue again, this time his argument is that the home plate umpire can't reverse his call (silly argument, but he was mad).

So here's my question: is what the coach specifically says when making an appeal that important? If the coach had simply used the phrase "she dropped in on the transfer," might the outcome have been different?

Thanks again for all of your insight marriard. I feel like you've been particularly active the past few weeks, and I learn something every time you post. You and Man In Blue, promoting understanding of the people behind the mask!!
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
So here's my question: is what the coach specifically says when making an appeal that important? If the coach had simply used the phrase "she dropped in on the transfer," might the outcome have been different?

You would not believe the amount I learn online from people like MTR and Comp - but also from all the variety of situations people throw out there that make you think about what and why you would call something and what rules apply. I can't believe more of my fellow umpires don't get online like this because it has saved me quite a few times when something weird has come up.

Your question:

***** It matters a LOT what a coach says when they come out to talk to an umpire *****

Always go to the official who made the call. No umpire can overrule another - so in the end it is going to be their final decision on the call and anything but polite & calm isn't going to get you anywhere.

But more importantly there are only so many things you can appeal or ask about so if you do not include something in your question that meets those criteria, I am not meant to go to my partner to discuss anything. Appeals must be SPECIFIC. You must be asking about something missed or in some cases those rule cases we don't call unless appealed (such as a missed base or a tag up).

Some details:
1) Judgement is NOT appealable. If I am in great position, have a great view and see all the elements of a call (for example ball, bag, defense, offense on a force out), and you just think I got it wrong you might as well just stay in your dugout. I need to be asked something that I may not have seen... bobbled ball, foot off bag, ball dropped, player went to wrong bag if applicable, being blocked by a fielder, tag was after they reached, etc...

An umpire SHOULD NOT call something they didn't see - you are NEVER to assume something happened. For example, if I said there was a tag, I saw a tag. You can come question whether the tag was in time, but you can't actually question me about the existence of the tag - I would not have called a tag if I didn't see it. Now if I don't call a tag, and you think there was one - well now I have an element I may be able to get some more info on from my partner.

A lot of coaches are out there fishing, or saying 'you got it wrong' or 'can you ask for help' - none of these are going to get you anywhere with a well educated or trained umpire.

2) You can ask for proper SPECIFIC application of a rule. Like above. There is a LOT of rules and nuances and part-time umps and even full-time umps likely wont know them all or can get mixed up with sanction specific rule interpretation. If I am not sure I have the ruling correct, I am happy to go talk to my partner to see what they know. I will then make a final call - because that is the job - and the coach can protest if they like.

3) Lots of timing plays - tag ups, fourth out requests, etc.... Of course your players can male this appeal as well but it has to be SPECIFIC.

Lastly - and this is important - even when I do go to my partner for more information coaches need to understand that the other umpire is probably not in a great position to provide new information and also - especially if there are runners on - may not have even been looking at the play because they had other responsibilities - such as getting into position for the next possible play or watching a runner touch a bag or... whatever. When people say things like "How can both umpires have got it wrong?" - this is why., Umpires are not ball watching when other things might be happening elsewhere on the field.

Adding one more: Once it is called FOUL, it is FOUL. The end. No discussion. Good umpires wait until the ball is 100% foul before calling it foul, because it is a final decision and there is no changing it. This is going to matter to college softball if they add replay - what you do as an umpire is on really close foul calls you don't call it foul - you let it be fair and let replay fix it if you are wrong. Because there is no good remedy if you do it the other way.
The only exception is on a home run where we can discuss it is was fair or foul.
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
To support marriard’s detailed reply ... another example of don’t call it if you don’t see it:

This weekend I was behind the plate for a low line drive that the SS stabbed and rolled over on. I made no call. The runner started to turn away from first when the coach realized I didn’t make a call. He motioned her to get on the base.

Once the play died, the defensive coach came out and asked what I had. I told him “I had a glove on the ball, but then she rolled forward over it and I didn’t see a clear catch.” Coach asked me to go for help and I was happy to do so. My BU was in the C-position and confirmed he had a good look and the ball never hit the ground. I call the runner out.

Had I initially called her out because I assumed the ball stayed in her glove and off the ground while the runner sulked back to the dugout ... and then my partner said “No, that ball definitely on the ground” ... pretty hard to fix that one. Always err on the side of letting it play out and then fix it.

PS — the umpire in the OP ... an avid NFL watcher?
 

2br02b

Trabant swing
Jul 25, 2017
303
43
The umpire judged that she ddn't have control of the ball to complete a tag. That was his judgement - that is the call and there is no real appeal here unless he gets the rule wrong - which can happen if you go out and politely say "I believe the ball only came out on the fall. When did you see the fielder lose control of the ball?". If he then agrees on when the ball came out because of the fall then you can say "Can you check with your partner on the ruling of a what makes a successful tag, because I believe the tag was already complete before they fell".

Really a HTBT call because I have no way of telling when the fielder lost control of the ball other than what you have written which is hearsay.

Last umpire training I went to used a 'on/off switch' analogy for calling this sort of play - basically once the connection is complete, it is a call . Once the tag is successful, it is successful and that means they had control of the ball through the actual tag. The fielder They don't need to take it to the ground. Or control it forever. If there was a controlled tag, then it is an out. But the umpire thought their wasn't and it is his judgement call to make.

That is what I was looking for. Thanks.

I was in the 3b dugout - had a clear view of the tag and separation. Umpire was in the c-position and would have had the runner between him and the glove. He didn't call what he didn't see. In other words - I think if the pitcher hadn't fallen, he still would have called the runner safe, because he did not see the tag.

The on/off switch is the answer I was looking for.
 

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